Let's Talk Disability

Let's Talk Disability with Professor Duncan Ivison and Professor Jackie Carter

Host: Dr Hamied Haroon
Guest: Professor Duncan Ivison
Guest: Professor Jackie Carter

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JACKIE: Hello, my name is Jackie Carter. I'm the EDI Disability Academic Lead at the University of Manchester and I've set up a series of in-conversation pieces called Let's Talk Disability.

The reason for this is that I want people who have a disability and who work and study at the University of Manchester to have opportunity to share what their lived experience, their every day experience is with somebody in a position of influence, a senior leader at the University.

So each episode will feature two guests and each of those guests will have a conversation about what it means to have a disability at the University of Manchester
and at the end of the conversation each will commit to one action, we're calling them 'one things', where they will take away something from the conversation that they've had and do something with it.

I hope you enjoy listening and we'll make of course the transcripts available for everybody.

Thank you.

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HAMIED: So good afternoon. It doesn't really matter what time of the day it is. Hello friends and colleagues.

It's wonderful to be hosting this episode of the Let's Talk Disability series where we have a disabled colleague from the University paired up with an influential senior
leader at the University to talk about the experiences of being disabled and talking through that lived/living experience of disability, working and studying here at the University that is in the centre of the best city in the world.

So I am Hamied Haroon. I'm a research fellow at the University in the Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health and I also happen to be the chair of the National Association of Disabled Staff Networks which was born right here at
the University of Manchester just over ten years ago in fact.

That coming off the work we did to found one of the first disabled staff networks at a University, here in Manchester. Extremely proud of that.

I am joined today by two eminent colleagues; really eminent colleagues and I am so proud and so happy to be hosting this session.

So we have Professor Jackie Carter who's our EDI Disability Academic Lead for the University and our very new President and Vice-Chancellor, Professor Duncan Ivison in conversation.

So let me start with you Jackie. If you'd like to introduce yourself please.

JACKIE: Thank you Hamied and I'm sitting on the opposite side of the table today.

I'm normally in the chair that you're in hosting these conversations but it's a real pleasure and delight actually to be here today to speak with Duncan and the way we normally start is introducing ourselves and why we're here.

So I'm Jackie Carter, I'm a Professor in Statistical Literacy in the School of Social Sciences at the University of Manchester and my day job is I build bridges between
the Higher Education Academy and the workplace. I run a scheme of work placements for undergraduate students which is into its 11th year and we're terrifically proud of that scheme because it's opened doors to many students and 25% of those students have been from historically underrepresented groups and 70% have been female. So you know we're creating a diverse talent pipeline into the workplace for social science students to go into data careers.

So that's my day job but I guess I'm sitting here today because I'm as you say the EDI Academic Lead for the University of Manchester, a position I've held for a year and a half now and it's what gets me up in the morning. It drives me and I'm driven very
much from my own personal experience of being disabled but also because I have a son who has a life-limiting condition and you know there's nothing like a life-limiting condition to make you realize that your time on this earth is short and I feel we're all here to do something and I think this is what I'm here to do, is to sort of raise awareness of the lived and living experience of disability.

So in my own case, erm, a trigger warning. I'm a cancer survivor. I had breast cancer in 2017 and then in 2019-2020 I had a neurological condition called Ramsey-Hunt syndrome, which they took some time to diagnose. It was at the time of Covid, I ended up in hospital and there was a lot of other attention being given to a lot of very ill people. So they didn't diagnose it straight away and sadly that's left me deaf, dizzy and disabled.

So I wear hearing aids now. I've got very profound hearing loss on one side on the side where the nerve was damaged and I have tremendous problems balancing. So a simple thing like crossing the road or, for instance, Duncan I couldn't walk around
campus and talk with you, I'd fall over. I can't do two things at once. I can no longer teach because the mere effort of teaching is very physical, one has to be you know on ones feet, turning the head, concentrating, talking, and I get very easily overwhelmed. My senses get overwhelmed.

So as a result of that what I decided to do was to put that experience to good use so when I was encouraged to apply for the EDI academic lead position by our good friend and colleague Kathy Bradley, I decided to put myself forward, got the position and since having the position I am on a mission, which I'm sure we'll talk about, collectively with colleagues, staff and students to really raise awareness of disability inclusion
because many of us in this space feel that of all the protected characteristics it's possibly the one that gets talked about less and partly the reason for that is because 80 percent of people who have a disability have a hidden disability, like mine and so that's why I'm proudly wearing the sunflower lanyard today and we can tap into some of the things that we're doing at the university later.

So that's who I am. Sorry that's a very long introduction

DUNCAN: No it's good

JACKIE: a lot to say yeah thank you.

HAMIED: So Duncan it's fantastic that we're having this episode with yourself so early on in your role as our new Vice Chancellor and President. We had an episode with Nancy Rothwell just as she was stepping down from the same role.

It'd be great to get your perspective on how it's going in Manchester and something about yourself in your background as well.

DUNCAN: So thanks Hamied and thanks very much Jackie for sharing that.

I really appreciate that you know the story of your life and what motivates you and what drives you. That's something I always enjoy learning about people, you know when I first meet them, so I appreciate that and Hamied so I've got another first in Manchester so I, there's so many firsts in Manchester so hearing about the disability
network that you've founded and driven is a great, great tribute to you and your colleagues but yet another Manchester first so we can add it to the list of many great Manchester firsts.

So yes so I started as President and Vice Chancellor on the 1st of August. Before that I'm a Canadian originally I grew up in Montreal, Quebec on the East coast of Canada, the French-speaking province and that was a really kind of formative experience. Me growing up in a very multicultural, multilingual environment, I think that shaped me in lots of ways. I've always been really interested in sort of issues of diversity, disagreement, complex identities, the way in which societies do or or do not enable that to sort of be a condition of their flourishing you know I've always been interested in those questions and so I became, you know fascinated. I went to university thinking
I was going to be a lawyer. I lasted exactly one week and fell in love with philosophy and moral and political philosophy in particular so I'm fortunate to also be a Professor of Political Philosophy in the Department of Politics in the School of Social Sciences
as well and my colleagues are even letting me teach a bit this semester which I'm really enjoying.

So so yeah look it's a great thrill to be here I mean this is a kind of extraordinary honour and privilege you know. I've always I've always really liked Manchester. I did my PhD in the UK and I used to come up to Manchester on the weekends. I lived in a rather squalid shared house with a bunch of Mancunians and they used to feel sorry for me and bring me up to Manchester on the weekends and I always loved it and I just never thought I'd come back in this role but it was such an exciting opportunity when when it all started to happen so it's a real, like I said it's a genuine privilege to come and be here and work with you all.

I mean the reason I'm here is because of the way in which the university is embedded not just in the history of the city and the region and the country but also its commitment to that kind of embeddedness right. So some universities almost by default are civic universities I think Manchester is a civic university by definition right.

It's it defines its purpose in relation to that and that's something I've always admired from afar. I'm very passionate about how universities serve the communities, they are not only embedded in but connected to in various ways. So that's you know one of the main reasons I'm here and that commitment extends also to social responsibility and
to equity, diversity, inclusion and you know when I was in a very very long process of you know, being you know, going through you know the presidential kind of selection thing you know I was, I was really impressed with the conversations we were having very early on about the importance of EDI, the importance of social responsibility and that was a very powerful signal to me because I do think great universities are places where people can come, be themselves, express who they are in their workplace every day.

Doesn't mean it's easy, doesn't mean everything's perfect but that that's a foundational quality I think of truly great universities and not all universities do it well so you know.
I want to be part of a university that does sort of demonstrate its commitment to EDI in a very you know significant way so you know that's why partly why I'm here and I'm really delighted to to learn from you two and talk about some of the issues that you've been working on and things we might need to do better.

HAMIED: Fantastic thank you Duncan.

It's wonderful to meet you in person by the way.

So parts of our history that we're embedded in is a very strong disabled people's rights movement in in Manchester and so much has happened over that that course of time since the movement started through legislation and through activism and and different definitions of disability where we've come to an understanding around what's known as the social model of disability where it's not us as disabled people that are the problem but the barriers that we face. You're not going to change us but we can do something about those barriers to make it more inclusive.

So hidden disabilities is something that I am learning a lot more about because my disabilities are, I'm a physically disabled person you can see. 'm a wheelchair user, I've always been disabled. I don't know anything different but learning the stories of those who have had those changes during their life, it means a lot to me. I'm learning so much from that and Jackie if you could tell us something about your journey please.

JACKIE: Yeah I've shared how I became disabled you know, so and I'm learning a lot as well and I'm no expert and we do have fantastic support mechanisms at the University of Manchester. The Disability Advisory Support Service, an EDI directorate,
you know we have people who are very passionate and driven about this area who are supporting colleagues and students on a day-to-day basis.

I think I just want to put into context the issue around disability and chronic illness as well. So sometimes it's hard to answer the question if a person doesn't self-identify as being disabled, if the question doesn't allow them to do that and we know that from the data we collect. But because I'm a data person I'm interested in data I've looked up the UK statistics on disability and according to the labour force survey, the latest figures were out at the end of 2023 24 percent of the working age population are disabled.

That's high! And when I say that to people often people say that's a really high number, 24 percent, that doesn't mean all those people are in the workforce, it means that of the workforce, of the working age population, 24 percent are disabled and that represents over 10 million people in the UK.

But you know that's a large minority group if we think about that in terms of the University of Manchester and our own data we've got data about how many people you've got here, we find, and this is the interesting thing about data because you have to really critically evaluate what it's measuring and you have to ask the question about what does that, you know the first thing I do when I'm teaching students is write a statistic on the board and ask them what it means and ask them to think about it
in context of the social issue that we're thinking about or the social inequality we're thinking about.

So according to our own data, we've got this in the equality information report for 2024.
I looked it up this morning 8.3 percent of our staff have shared that they have a disability on their staff record however 13.3 percent are registered with the disability advisory support service so we know that we've got a high proportion.

The reason I'm sharing that stat is because we have a high proportion of our own staff at the University of Manchester who have shared with the disability advisory support service that they have a disability or chronic illness chronic long-term illness. Now that means that you know every time we go into a room, okay there's only three of us here now and two of us have shared that we have a disability but every time we go into a room, into a classroom, into the many meetings that I'm sure you've already been involved in Duncan, there will be people in that room who are disabled and my mission working alongside all of my amazing colleagues is to ensure that they feel just as included regardless of their disability as everybody else in that room.

Now in order to make that happen we all, you know, we can raise awareness of, we can have the conversations but we all have to take action because if we're not then we are potentially letting some of those colleagues and students down. So I just want to sort of put frame what this stat in terms of disability in the UK means in the context of our own institution which we're hugely proud of but as you said as we know there's still more to do

HAMIED: Going on from those statistics Duncan, yeah what place do you think our university has in in being an example around the inclusion of disabled staff? So disabled students and I myself was a student at this university. Disabled students are quite well supported in their studies.

DUNCAN: I mean, I mean what was your experience like as a student?

HAMIED: it was pretty good. So DASS at the time, which was the disability support office at that time, it was there to support disabled students throughout the course of your studies even going to conferences as a postgraduate student it was there to support you, it kind of took took care of the the support you needed as a disabled student but then as soon as I became a member of staff all of that support disappeared. Right at that time and that was back in say 2006, 2007 and well 2006, 2007 was when we started our disabled staff network but I became a member of staff in 2004 so for all of that time there was no support available for disabled staff here and it was really just chance if you came across a colleague in HR who knew anything about about access to work or the support that you could get as a person as a disabled person in work but then with the disabled Staff Network, one of our first achievements was to get the university to provide disability support services specifically for disabled staff sitting alongside what was already there for disabled students.

So how do you think we can progress how do you think we could be an example as a Russell Group University as a university many other universities and institutions look to. That that was one of our first achievements that others are still kind of catching on to that this is such an important thing to have support there for disabled staff

DUNCAN: Yeah I mean that's a great story I mean of your kind of leadership and your commitment to improving not only your experience but the experience of other staff and I think that's a credit to you but also hopefully a, you know, a sign that the institution was able to respond when you challenged them and hopefully we can continue to do that.

I mean you know in my first town hall someone asked me a similar question about EDI in general and I guess I have a, I guess my general sort of approach to this is, on the one hand I think we always need to listen to the group that's most impacted about around the particular issue whether that's disabled staff, whether that's staff in in in other protected characteristics or other minority groups or or other groups so the first principle is are we listening to the people whose interests are most at issue, at most at stake so are we listening to our disabled staff and do we know that we're listening to our disabled staff, you know especially someone like me. Am I actually hearing from the people I need to be hearing from? I'm actually hearing the the advice, the criticisms, the the suggestions, the arguments, the policies. Are we actually listening and but do we know we're listening and that's a really important thing for me to always test and I know already that the university has a great culture around that, so that's the first thing like, are we listening? Do we know we're listening? Do we have the appropriate fora? Do we have, are the right conversations happening?

So I guess I guess I'm going to put that question back on to you guys to tell me do you think that's the case now, so that's the first thing I think.

Then the second thing is you know are we.. are we in a position to you know, not only you know invest in the appropriate support but do we have the ability to learn from what we're doing? So are we a learning organisation and you know what's slightly paradoxical to me is that universities are bad learning organisations you know, like we often don't learn from from what we're doing and that frustrates me and it's not only true in relation to disabled colleagues or in relation to other colleagues but just in general, so it's something I'm you know, something I'm thinking a lot about how do we become a better learning organisation so so if we're listening and we know that we're listening and then we respond and put in place policies, put in place support, put in place the appropriate measures that our colleagues are telling us we need, are we learning from that right? Are we actually changing as an organisation, is it reflected in our culture? Is it reflected more broadly in terms of our values and our approach overall? So to me that's really important that's the second thing and of course both of these things can go we're imperfect and we make mistakes but that's why that learning thing and then the third thing I think for me is a really interesting test is you know are we are we kind of, are we kind of leading on this rather than following are we actually and what I'm hearing credit to you both in many ways, is it sounds like we are leading and that's important too because if we're leading then you know we're creating an environment in which everyone hopefully can really flourish and feel that they can contribute to to the university. At the end of the day that's the most important thing right? We want people to come whatever their background, whatever their, their, their physical or abilities, whatever their cognitive abilities. We want them, we want people to flourish and we want people to do well and we want people to to be able to contribute.

So, so the third thing for me is are we leading and and one aspect of that also since we are a university is you know, are we doing the research you know, are we actually doing the work and that links back to the learning bit and links back to the listening bit so the third thing I'm interested in testing in relation to the you know, the work that you're both doing is yeah are we, are we doing the research? Are we actually asking questions? Are we you know looking at this in a longitudinal way? Are we thinking about this in a systematic way and if if the social model of disability which I think is a very powerful frame for this, if that is if that is genuinely our our I guess our conceptual framework for thinking about disability rights and thinking about the flourishing of our colleagues then you know, are we understanding the social condition of the University of Manchester? Right?

I mean one thing I notice is like everything from really bad sidewalks that I trip over almost every day, let alone you Hamied on a on a wheelchair. Navigating those to you know our public events. You know at my inaugural address it was lovely to have you know the signer. Not just lovely, it was important but it was great to see that expression of commitment to our classrooms you know. I'm as I said I'm doing a bit of teaching this semester. It's interesting seeing the kind of support we provide our students and the facilities we have in our classrooms you know are we actually um you know are we actually thinking all that through so those are the three.

I guess that's the way I see it and at each level those things can break down and and not be great and if you do it well, then you've got those self-correcting mechanisms that tell you you know that it's not going well so I guess looks as though that's happening at Manchester but I guess we'll we'll see.

JACKIE: Can I respond

HAMIED: please Jackie

JACKIE: So thank you so much Duncan that's really provoked me thinking about some aspects of what you've talked about that I haven't thought about sufficiently well before but also to share some of what we are doing in response to that um listening, learning and leading. And on the listening, I I know by the time this airs you will have met the Disabled Staff Network and you will have met the um if you haven't already, the EDI director and one of the things...

DUNCAN: I have yes, that's Sarah,

JACKIE: Sarah's a real advocate and champion as well um and so you will have heard about the fora through which people can share and offload and um you know be surveyed and all of the ways of gathering that sort of uh lived and living experience information and what they would like to see happen as a result of that and what we do as a result of that and how that falls into the ongoing activity and the never-ending list of but we need more okay?

So we do know there's always more we can do so I think the listening is happening, whether it's happening as effectively and efficiently as it could be is a is a question that perhaps needs to go back to the DSN and certainly I'm interested in the learning. I could not agree more okay and I'm always, so I'm a very atypical academic. I didn't become an academic until I was in my 50s. I spent 20 years in what universities now call business engagement which is why I've got all these networks outside of the university sector and prior to that I was a school teacher so I'm a self-reflective practitioner by training and a mathematician by training. Evaluation is just baked into everything I do you know self-reflection and evaluation of what you do. Does it work? If it doesn't change it, if it does then do it and do more stronger and better and I am also fascinated by how in the EDI space what we haven't got right yet at Manchester and those of us in this space know we haven't got it right and I've got an idea is that we have intervention programs but we individually evaluate them so instead of looking at the system as a whole and thinking about everything's intersectional you know.

I sit here as a disabled woman from a working-class background okay and other people could describe themselves instead of just thinking of looking down a single lens of race or gender or disability or any of the other the sexualities, any of the other characteristics. We need to be looking across the piece and we need to be doing that longitudinally and having been at the university for a long time 28 years this year in different roles one of the things I find is frustrating is when the institutional memory gets lost because of the churn and change over of staff and I think we have so many bright, intelligent, committed, driven, amazing people. But the longevity of some of the programs of work that we do, could the evaluation of the longevity of the programs could be improved. So the idea I've got is to create a role which I'm speaking to people about about, having an overarching framework for all EDI interventions which we then use to look individually at each of the interventions we do but we're using a consistent system-wide framework so that we've got that joined up way of thinking and then we can intersectionally look at two things to say, so the learning needs more work. I absolutely agree and I'd be really keen to find out if you've come across other higher education institutions, universities or other institutions actually who are doing a really good job at learning and evaluating and reflecting and improving and then the leading.

Well you'll know that we've got the Disability Confident Leader status which we're very proud of. I say in many fora that there's a question mark over the fitness for purpose of that for the higher education sector and Hamied and I, and this might be back to you, Hamied, are involved with a group of higher education staff across the sector who are looking at a framework that's developed by disabled people for disabled people in higher education. And the one that we've currently got has come out of the public sector in the UK. It's come out of civil service and public organizations and it's it's great, it's a nice shiny gong to have and that's really really good for the purpose of the university being described as a leader, but there are questions being asked about you know whether or not that really is the framework that we want for the future and the other thing that that framework doesn't do, the Disability Confident Framework is it doesn't, it's not ratified or approved by the Advanced HE Higher Education academy.

So you know it's sort of come out of public sector but not of the university sector so all of that is to say that we are aware of many of the issues that you've talked about in the disability space but I think the bigger message that I can't see anybody disagreeing with is we have to get this right intersectionally because if we only ever pick off one characteristic then we're doing a disservice to the intersectional identities that each and every one of us has.

DUNCAN: So Hamied can I ask you a question

HAMIED: Yes sir

DUNCAN: So so describe, I mean what do you think a Disability Confident Leader looks like, sounds like, behaves like.

HAMIED: So I think disability confident um an employer who is disability confident to me is is an employer who empowers the the disabled people that work for them. Not just empowers them, but welcomes them and not just makes it um an accessible experience, whatever that is in terms of the buildings or whatever, but but one that's inclusive, everybody can go through the same door at the front of the building. I don't have to go a different way in. Everybody's together and everybody has that equal opportunity to progress, to succeed, to not have assumptions made against them that they um can't achieve such a thing because they're disabled. How do we know? That there are people who talk about, for example people with learning disabilities. Um I talked with somebody from the government I think it was a Minister for Disabled People just talking about learning disabled people, a particular person who had an entry-level job in a company and they were very happy with that and their parents were very happy with that but there was no kind of chance of them climbing the ladder. Well why shouldn't they climb the ladder? Why are you assuming that just because somebody is learning disabled they're not going to be able to do that. We need to change the way things are done much of the time because there's a particular model in place.

So for academics, for example that we work 24 hours a day, that we don't need to go to the loo, that we can go to every conference there is anywhere in the world. That that um it doesn't matter what we're required to do, we should just, you know we have all the energy there is in the world to do anything but that model is breaking us. There are so many talented incredible academics, researchers, other people who we need in academia who we lose because of this model, because of this very very kind of tight way of of of kind of assuming what we should be and how we should function. Um but breaking the model is what we need to do so that then everyone is included, everyone is welcome and maybe Manchester could be the next place where someone like my childhood role model, Stephen Hawking, for instance and the incredible contribution he made to science as a disabled person. If we could have somebody like that grow from Manchester, how incredible that would be. That would show that we're disability confident, that we really mean what we say in terms of our values and goals. Does that?

DUNCAN: That's really helpful I mean I love that um that I mean I know you meant it literally but it's a very powerful kind of metaphor too when you said, you know everyone should come through through the same door. I think that's a very powerful metaphor for for what you describe as a kind of disability confident institution right, so no going around the special, there's no special entrance there's no um whatever some some other way of doing it everyone comes through the same door. I think that's very really helpful.

HAMIED: That's not to say I'm not special of course

JACKIE: Exactly. okay so I know we have a couple of questions at the end but um I'm thinking if I were to ask you a question now Duncan, following on from what you've just asked Hamied and it reverts back to what you were talking about the learning organization. You know is there anything you with your experience that you have elsewhere from other institutions that you think you could share with us to help us move forward on this um intersectional EDI but with a disability lens journey?

DUNCAN: Yeah I mean it's interesting I was thinking about this walking over um to speak to you. I mean unfortunately there's a lot of things I don't want to see happen here that I've seen at other institutions there's a kind of there's a kind of negative version and I think it would be encapsulated in in the opposite of what you described Hamied where the focus really is on you know special provision, special this, special that, exception this, exception that, rather than asking you know how do we actually include and how do we build common approaches and understandings, common pathways right. So that's why I found your description very powerful and that that's something. I really want to you know work with you and others on here through the EDI um team but also the the through the values of institution.

How do we create that common pathway, how do we create that common door through which all of our colleagues enter and and then you know to continue the metaphor kind of climb the stairs of of of their personal and professional flourishing. I mean the one thing I would say is, if I reflect on the institutions where I do think there's been a very strong commitment to disability inclusion in particular, there was a visible senior leader who was open about their disability yes. So I think now I haven't been here long enough to know to meet similar I'm sure there are well, you two are leaders in that regard here.

But if I reflect on it that, that's been a very powerful thing where there was a senior person in the institution. you know um famous at Sydney for example where I was for 23 years um you know our Dean of Law was was blind and you know this was 15 years ago but Ron uh who was one of Australia's most prominent um labour lawyers um so you know and when anyone had any legal trouble the line up outside of Ron's door would be quite long you know but Ron was it you know very influential Dean and just a very powerful, I don't just mean symbolically but you know he was a full member of the senior executive. I mean I was a very sort of young Head of School at the time and he he was a great sort of mentor, someone who I learned a lot from but you know that was really important he he there was no, there was no kind of second special provision. He insisted on being treated the same as any other senior leader was. Um he did as much fundraising, speaking, negotiating, arguing, as any other senior leader would do. Yeah did not expect to be treated any differently than any senior leader. So you know law schools can be pretty brutal places sometimes and that was a really powerful thing for the organization I think it kind of lifted everyone's uh lifted everyone up from from where they might otherwise be. So maybe that's something we need to think about at Manchester right?

How do we ensure that we're developing our leaders so that we'll have you know, a disabled vice chancellor or disabled vice president whatever it is um visible um leading you know in their own way um from the front so that's probably something yeah that I'd like to

JACKIE: I'm so glad you shared that. On the Let's Talk Disability recordings that we've already shared there are two senior leaders um who have already spoken on the series um about the lived and living experiences of disability. I won't tell you who they are but I'll point you to the uh series afterwards, the conversations. And as a result of having had those conversations and sharing openly because these recordings are made openly available, they have started to um use that in a lot of what they do communicating wise and so you talked about role models. You know it is about sort of people being comfortable enough to be able to share what they're willing to share and then for others to see them sharing and that has that trickle-down effect. So yeah I think that's already starting to happen at Manchester um but I take your point about you know somebody almost at the top of the organization being very well experienced, having that personal experience of disability. It goes a long way so we really thank you for coming on today and sort of listening to to ours but also we would hope that you would then go back and think about encouraging others in your spheres of influence as they say.

HAMIED: yeah absolutely, um are you going to ask your question Jackie?

JACKIE: Okay so we wrap up these conversations Duncan by each asking the other a question about one action that we will commit to um have we got the questions Hamied? right because I can't remember they are because I'm normally on the other side. So as a result of this conversation today Duncan what one thing one action will you commit to do.

DUNCAN: I think just going back to that last point I made about leadership. I think I'm spending quite a bit of time thinking about leadership in the university because all great universities that I know of are characterized by a certain quality of distributed leadership. Of course you need to have deans and stuff but there's a kind of culture of distributed leadership where people are leaders in different ways across all institutions so I think one action I'm going to take away from today is thinking about how do we connect our ambitions around the disability EDI agenda and the disability network with our ambitions around leadership and maybe think about something specific we can do to help develop disabled colleagues get get them in a in a position to be thinking about leadership in an unconstrained way. Yes as you say it has to be something just because you're disabled doesn't mean you have to be a disability leader you can be a leader in physics or philosophy or whatever your your passion is but if that's something that has been effective at other institutions then how do we make it effective here right. So that's one thing I'll take away

HAMIED: Wow that sounds incredible

JACKIE: that's very powerful and it also yeah and it also aligns with we have brought in disability leadership training for disabled staff that I'm personally evaluating and we want to scale that up and think about more,

DUNCAN: let's see what happens yeah

JACKIE: and we've done that in a hybrid fashion. It's uh we've we've met some challenges but nonetheless it's taught us a lot so it comes back to learning reflecting and building better.

HAMIED: And so now Duncan if you would like to ask Jackie?

JACKIE: thank you

HAMIED: please

DUNCAN: Okay I have to put on my glasses because my eyesight is rapidly deteriorating um so Jackie what's the one thing that you think would make a difference to disabled staff and students lived experience here at the University of Manchester?

JACKIE: Well I think you've touched on it. I think we need senior-level support in a distributed way I don't think it can ever be done by one person saying this is what we're going to do and you know I'm I'm the single champion for this we need it to be part of every conversation when people talk about social injustice or social inequalities we need to be thinking that disability is part of that conversation you know and we need to be thinking about it in the round and systematically the way that we've talked about.

So I I would like you to go back and talk to your senior team about foregrounding this and listen to what's coming out of the membership of the university through the disabled staff network. So it's top down and bottom up for me always

DUNCAN: I mean is there a particular do you think there's a particular challenge with when people think about EDI or we talk about EDI, is there a particular challenge with with disabled colleagues feeling included in that I mean is there something that's we're not getting right there do you think

JACKIE: I think, it's like many of the EDI aspects of EDI in that people don't know where to start the conversation. Yeah there's a lack of education whatever you want to call it.

People just don't know how to start the conversation. So I can wear this and I can look fine but I can also wear it and look terrible and people don't know what to do with it. So case in point we're running a campaign across the campus staff and students to show what this means. So we're going to have a photo of a person like me wearing it and then at the side of that we're going to have the same photo with the description of the hidden disability and at the bottom we're going to show and this is what you can do to support us So we start raising awareness of what this means. But have as always it's a case of having the conversation and not being embarrassed if you don't have the right language just with race and gender if you don't have the right language and you ask the the marginalised minoritised group what it is that you can do to improve the everyday lived experience of

HAMIED: when it when it comes to EDI. I feel like the agenda is driven by these charter marks we have in the sector, so the Athena Swan charter mark and the race equality charter mark. They they really kind of dominate if you like what universities are trying to do. When it comes to disability that there is no kind of parallel chart mark to that. There's the disability confident scheme and Business Disability Forum but they don't really fill the gap when it comes to disability So something I'd like you to be aware of is that through the National Association of Disabled Staff Networks we are developing as Jackie mentioned earlier on we're developing a framework of our own which will be called Realising Inclusion of Disabled Employees in Higher Education or RIDE higher and with that sentiment of of really you know raising the bar when it comes to disability equality and really pushing for disabled staff to be included wholeheartedly in universities and to flourish and succeed as we should do in those institutions and be wonderful to have your support behind that. I know that tomorrow you're meeting our wonderful amazing co-chairs of our disabled staff network at the university so yeah you'll have a great conversation with them.
DUNCAN: No thanks for, I'm sure on the the issues that they will raise so I think we draw this

JACKIE: I think I think we've yeah I think we've had a really rich fruitful I've found it fascinating and interesting and

DUNCAN: yeah it's been really helpful for me very helpful for me yeah I'm still learning a lot

JACKIE: likewise

DUNCAN: so these are great conversations

HAMIED: fantastic and hopefully we'll continue these conversations we'll get you back at some point in the future and it's been this has been absolutely wonderful and I believe this is going out through disability history month. So a very happy disability history month to everyone everywhere thank you

DUNCAN: Thanks very much thanks