Let's Talk Disability - Being a Disabled EDI Leader
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>> Music playing
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>>JACKIE: Hello, my name is Jackie Carter.
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I am the EDI Disability Academic
Lead at the University of Manchester.
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And I set up a series of in conversation pieces called Lets Talk Disability.
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The reason for this is that I want people who have a disability and
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who work and study at The University of Manchester
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to have opportunity to share what their lived experience,
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their everyday experience is with somebody in a position of influence,
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a senior leader at the university.
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So each episode will feature two guests
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and each of those guests will have a conversation
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about what it means to have a disability at The University of Manchester
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and at the end of the conversation each will commit to one action,
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we're calling them 'One Things'
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where they will take away something from
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the conversation that they've had and do something with it
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I hope you enjoy listening and we will make of course, the transcripts available for everybody.
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Thank you
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Music playing
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So welcome to episode two, episode three sorry
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of the Let's Talk disability series.
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And today I've got two guests who I feel, I know quite well
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and they're about to introduce themselves.
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But before they do just to remind the listeners that the purpose of this recording is so that we can have honest and open and constructive conversations about disability,
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about the lived experience of disability at the University of Manchester.
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But the really important part of this is that it results in action.
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So we move from talking to action because that's very important to us.
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So, Kathy, can I start with you?
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Could you please introduce yourself?
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>>KATHY: Yeah, of course. Um, I'm Kathy Bradley,
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I'm EDI partner in the central EDI directorate.
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I'm also lead on supporting with disability at the University of Manchester
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and I do that from a personal
point of view, more than anything.
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I have disabilities and very much plural.
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I live with ankylosing spondylitis. I'm a twice cancer survivor.
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I have mental health issues.
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And I'm in the process of finding out that I possibly have ADHD as well.
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So I I kind of come to this with vast lived experience
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of disability and living with disability
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and the struggles that that can cause in the workplace and outside the workplace as well.
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>>JACKIE: Thank you Kathy. And I'm just going to take the opportunity to say,
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you are a disability advocate extraordinaire.
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It's phenomenal working with you, and before I hand over to Patrick,
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I should fill in the gap to say why I'm here why I'm doing this.
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Uh, my name is Jackie Carter.
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I'm the EDI disability academic lead at the University of Manchester,
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so, Patrick over to you, please.
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Well, hello. My name is Patrick Hackett
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and I'm the Registrar, Secretary and Chief Operating Officer at the University.
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And I've been here now, for about five and a half years,
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Erm... amongst my many roles is, uh, one that I'm passionate about,
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which is our all-out champion on SLT, but I'm passionate about all matters inclusivity,
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uh, and I'm here today partly because you've invited me Jackie.
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But more importantly, because I'm really passionate about the subject that we're going to discuss today.
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>>JACKIE: Excellent brilliant. Thank you both. So very much.
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So we have about 30 minutes and let's get into the conversation proper.
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So Kathy, I'm going to ask you to start, you've got Patrick here, you know, Patrick.
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But what is it you'd like to ask as a representative of the EDI directorate,
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but also a PS member of staff.
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Well, how would you like to get the conversation going about Let's talk disability.
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>>KATHY: I think that's the point. We've branded these conversations as let's talk disability
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But unfortunately disability gets left out in the conversation.
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Um, it's the one protected characteristic, if that's what you want to call it.
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That any one of us could have at any point in our lives, you know,
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unfortunately as we all age and we all do this, you know,
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we all start to experience sight loss and deafness and not to mention arthritis,
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and, and all of those other things that come with ageing.
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But also we have accidents, you know, and and any one of us could could become disabled,
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um, from my experience, you know, I've said, I'm twice, cancer survivor,
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I had breast cancer in 2008. I had endometrial cancer, two years ago,
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Um, and I'm very lucky, obviously I survived and I got through it
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but my treatment left me with probably significant disabilities.
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I put on a lot of weight. Which has left me with skeletal disabilities. Um,
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I suppose. I want disability to be just a normal part of
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everyday conversation in everything that we do.
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I feel, I genuinely sometimes feel like I'm the only voice in the room.
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That is saying, have you thought about disabled people, and I'll be honest.
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And I've already said I have mental health problems.
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That is exhausting as a disabled person advocating for other disabled people.
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Um, I'll be completely honest. I'm exhausted.
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Um and it's my job and I love my job with a passion.
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I can never imagine me working anywhere else and and there is a positive side to this in that
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I was 50 this year, I've got a long career history and
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The University of Manchester as a disabled person has been the best
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place I have ever worked as a disabled person.
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So there is that positive.
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And there are lots of things that we are doing really, really well.
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But talking about disability is not one of them, and it should not
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always be the same voices that are standing up.
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It should not always be me or Jackie or Rachel, or Laura
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Um, Rachel Hayes and Laura Howard who are always the ones in the room,
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who are saying, have you thought about disability?
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Um, and I I find that really hard. I'll be completely honest. I find that really difficult.
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>>JACKIE: Thank you Kathy. Thank you for your open and
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honest response to that opening, question.
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And before I pass over to Patrick, um, to respond, um,
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A couple of things. If you said there is about that,
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continuous labour that disabled people need to put in any way because of their disability.
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But in addition to that, to raise the profile of what it means to be disabled.
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So, thank you again, for being an advocate for that, but you are right. It is hard work.
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And secondly if you don't mind me saying because you didn't describe it,
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you described your symptoms and and um for disabilities that you you have,
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but you didn't say you're a wheelchair user,
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>>KATHY: I am. I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user.
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I only use my wheelchair at work because I genuinely could not
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access the campus without it, I can't walk very far.
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Um, I have a Mobility vehicle that I, you know, through my DLA,
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through motability I I have a car. I couldn't live without my car.
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Um, and I don't... I Had this conversation this morning in another meeting.
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I don't think. And I'm going to be completely truthful.
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I'm not sure that people in Estates understand the need of disabled people.
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Sometimes there are a few pockets that really do generally, they don't.
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So if you you've already driven an hour and a half into work,
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you come to your disabled parking spot and actually it's been dug up.
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And nobody told you nobody that it was going to be dug up
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and you've got to then park further away from the office makes life very challenging.
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You know, little things like that mean a huge amount to disabled people just being
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notified of things because you can plan, we're amazing planners
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disable people because we have to plan everything.
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Um, but I think And I've mentioned Estates, it's not only in Estates.
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There are other areas of the University that this happens.
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Um but yeah, being a wheelchair user,
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gives you a completely different focus on it than even just walking with sticks.
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>>JACKIE: Thank you very much and we will be
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inviting somebody from Estates onto this series as you know.
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Um, so that before I hand over, the only other thing I wanted to say, is,
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yes, these conversations are about challenges, that's really important,
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but it's also about strengths and we'll move to talking about strength in the second half.
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So, Patrick over to you, great, thank you.
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>>PATRICK: Um, the first thing I, I would like to say Kathy is that I have the
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privilege of knowing you reasonably well, we work together on, on lots of different
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things and you are an inspiration, I have to say you are an absolute inspiration.
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And, um, Please don't give up everything that you're doing. Uh, you are being heard.
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I do feel that whilst there's still a lot to do in our University.
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There's nobody's, you know, naive about that,
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but I do think we're on a really positive journey.
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The fact that we're here today, having this conversation is just another real example,
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uh, that we're on a positive journey.
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Jackie holding us to account by agreeing clear outcomes and actions from this
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meeting shows that we're not just talking about it, we're doing doing it as well.
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And I looked back at some of the the statistics
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around this just to to help me think about preparing for today
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and the number of staff and students overall who declare
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a disability in the University has ....
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>>KATHY: ... that's one thing I really want to change.
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Patrick, I'm so sorry for interrupting.
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I'd really like us to change that language.
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To sharing a disability. Declaring feels like something wrong.
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>>PATRICK: That's really helpful Thank you.
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>>KATHY: We've got something wrong. Sorry to challenge you
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>>PATRICK: It's not a challenge. I want to learn as well.
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>>JACKIE: It's what these conversations are about
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Absolutely, absolutely. So so for, so what for me back in 2019 fewer than six percent
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of our staff and students shared the fact that they they have a disability
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in 2023 that's now over eight percent. Um and to me that hopefully is showing
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us that we're more open and transparent
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and feeling that people can safely share share their disability with all of us.
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So that's that's a good thing.
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Um but we absolutely have to do is then respond and not just responding or reactive way,
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but be proactive.
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So, your point about estate issues is something that's very close to
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my heart because I'm an architect by profession.
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So, from the very beginning of my career, every time I thought about a project,
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I always thought about access and use of facilities right from the very, very beginning.
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So it's been with me or all my life and it's really interesting, isn't it?
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It hasn't changed from being an architect to being where I am now as a chief Operating Officer.
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Um, in fact, it's just,
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it's even more important and more more broad in its in its scope as well now.
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So, uh, yes, Uh, on the estate side. You know,
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estates colleagues, I believe are very genuine about this as well.
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>>KATHY: Absolutely
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As we all are we're all faced with competing priorities, limited resources, all of those
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things, but I think the scope for us to be really innovative in how we, how we do things,
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that's where we will, we will make probably quicker progress in the, in the future.
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>>KATHY: Yeah, I agree. I I I think this is a huge opportunity as as we shift,
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I mean, the university has changed so much since I joined Um you know,
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our focus on disability has changed so much
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and that that's down to some incredible people, it's down to Alys, down to Jackie.
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Um the network leads Kirsty and Jess and and the current Network leads
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Yes, we are on that upward trajectory. I think and maybe this is part of why people are saying
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to me. I'm a bit. I'm ADHD, I'm not even a bit ADHD. I'm definitely ADHD but there's that
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ambition, isn't there? That we are the University of Manchester we could be the sector leading.
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We could be the absolute pinnacle of what
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we should be doing for the University sector in the UK.
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And, and I, you know, by the time I retire, whether that's in 10,
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15 years time, I don't know. I I would like to turn around and say yes. That
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was part of my legacy that I left at the University of Manchester that
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disabled students can come and study with us and just know that we've got it right.
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Staff can just walk through the door and just come in with confidence.
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That they haven't got to worry that they're going to get their adjustments that their their manager
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understands the reason they need adjustments, they can hybrid work if they need to.
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Gosh, that's so valuable. Um, It's it's all of that, you know?
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I really want to look back and say, you know what, I had a hand in that.
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You know, I was part of that and and like, that Manchester is the best
place to come for disabled students and staff.
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>>PATRICK: And apart from, I think rightly um not having to spend your time,
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always talking about disabled issues that you want senior leaders,
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All of our leaders should be talking about this all the time.
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>>KATHY: Exactly.
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>>PATRICK: I completely agree with that.
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What, what are the things you think we, we could now do given where we've got to as a university?
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what are the things we could do?
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that would make us genuinely world leading,
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uh, in this area in the same way that we want to be world leading in our in our research,
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and want to be world leading with our student experience.
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How can we be world leading in the experience of all of our colleagues in an inclusive way?
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I think we've got to start... I always think it's kind of baby steps.
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You know, we can't do everything overnight.
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We've got a long way to go.
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When, you know, we're doing I've said before, we're doing some amazing stuff, but there's still a lot to do.
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I think baby steps is I want to see more non-disabled people stand up and say
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Do you know what, we should be talking about this as well
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We shouldn't be leaving it to those who are living with this.
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Um, you know, if I'm in a meeting, it's not just my voice that is saying, have you thought about disabled people?
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You know, I could almost press record on my phone and,
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and just play it at every meeting because I say it that often, but that non-disabled,
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people are saying, actually we've not got this quite right, you know, we should be putting...
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if a non-disabled person says we should be putting in sliding doors instead of electric doors.
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You know, we should be thinking about neurodivergent people when we're building, doing buildings.
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If they're saying that. It almost kind of makes our voices that little bit more powerful.
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It's not just us, it's not just another.. another angry disabled person saying, why haven't you done this for me?
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It's not about doing it for me.
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Actually, in some respects, it's about doing it for that student that's going to join us
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in five years time, in 10 years time
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or that member of staff who's going to walk through the door when I'm not even here.
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You know, and we've done it right.
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And we've done it now.
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>>PATRICK: Yeah, I agree
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>>JACKIE: If I can jump on that Patrick, because that was such a good question.
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And disability inclusion as is inclusion generally is everybody's job,
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it's not just for the Um, actually do you know that disabled people are the largest minoritized group.
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Okay. So, you know, 20% of the population you gave those stats earlier.
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But actually, according to official office for National Statistics figures,
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20% of the population would describe themselves as having a disability.
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So, you know, we're falling short of even capturing half of that data if you like,
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but it's everybody's business and your right to sort of point out that we all need to be talking about it.
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And I guess I'm going to just if I may on your behalf Kathy sort of ask. Um,
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Patrick to talk about, I don't know. But for want of a better term Ally ship,
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I'm not sure I like the term allyship but you know, to get other people to be supportive of
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what Kathy's been talking about in disability, in all its forms and the whole spectrum.
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>>PATRICK: Well, I think, let me give you an example of what what I do with my my leadership team,
0:17:22.640,0:17:24.360
how we together think about these things,
0:17:24.360,0:17:30.920
we've agreed uh, that as a as a Professional Services leadership team, we agree every year,
0:17:30.920,0:17:36.240
two objectives as a team around, EDI and inclusivity more more generally,
0:17:36.240,0:17:44.240
we also include specific, EDI objectives in each individual's PDR objectives, for the coming year.
0:17:44.240,0:17:47.360
And we we hold ourselves to account for those.
0:17:47.360,0:17:52.960
We have a champion Sinead Hesp who's doing an amazing role,
0:17:52.960,0:17:57.360
championing EDI across across Professional Services.
0:17:57.360,0:18:02.240
I think, what I what I'm what I'm getting you know, from this conversation
0:18:02.240,0:18:05.040
uh is that I think I would have to hold my hands up and say,
0:18:05.040,0:18:09.800
do I always think about disability when I think about all inclusivity issues?
0:18:09.800,0:18:15.920
I think I do a lot of the time but I I would say, I don't do all of the time frankly,
0:18:15.920,0:18:19.920
>>JACKIE: I think that's very honest. I could probably represent the majority of people who don't
0:18:19.920,0:18:23.800
necessarily think about it, you know, through no mal intention.
0:18:23.800,0:18:27.240
>>PATRICK: Yeah, so I I, you know, I think with this conversation,
0:18:27.240,0:18:30.320
maybe we will prompt others like me to think.
0:18:30.320,0:18:34.920
Well, hang on a minute. Maybe maybe, I need to be a bit more conscious about these things.
0:18:34.920,0:18:38.080
Not just unconscious about them subconscious about them.
0:18:38.080,0:18:42.960
Um, The other thing I wanted to say in response to to what Kathy was saying
0:18:42.960,0:18:52.600
um and this came to me really powerfully when I was at an AHUA
networking event,
0:18:52.600,0:18:58.480
in in Sheffield Hallam last late last year, AHUA is the association
of heads of University Administration.
0:18:58.480,0:19:02.480
So, COOs, secretaries, like, like me and we had, um,
0:19:02.480,0:19:05.720
I had the most inspiring session on on neurodivergence.
0:19:05.720,0:19:14.240
Um, and what I learnt from from that is that this isn't about accommodating people's disabilities.
0:19:14.240,0:19:16.920
Uh, in a sort of deficit model way.
0:19:16.920,0:19:24.000
This is about how do we ensure that as a university we are able to attract and retain the brightest people
0:19:24.160,0:19:31.440
that can make the most amazing contributions to our university and that was particularly true in neurodivergence.
0:19:31.440,0:19:33.320
If you work out what your complimentary skills are
0:19:33.320,0:19:35.800
and when you think about how you're putting a team together
0:19:35.800,0:19:39.640
and then you get amazing, amazing outcomes.
0:19:39.640,0:19:43.840
And I think that's true across all our EDI objectives and actually
0:19:43.840,0:19:50.800
if you think about it that way it's a really positive encouraging way of thinking about these things.
0:19:50.800,0:19:55.120
>>JACKIE: Well thank you for that realisation that we talk about a lot don't we Kathy?
0:19:55.120,0:19:55.400
>>KATHY: Yea, we do
0:19:55.400,0:19:59.840
>>JACKIE:. In the sessions that we go to and you're absolutely you're so right to focus on that
0:19:59.840,0:20:05.800
because we often have this deficit narrative around a protected characteristic but yet only we
0:20:05.800,0:20:09.720
shine the light from the other direction and say but what do these people bring?
0:20:09.720,0:20:14.040
They bring diversity of thought experience, you know, live different lived experience.
0:20:14.040,0:20:18.680
Um the ability to interact with people like them and certainly
0:20:18.680,0:20:21.640
being in a leadership position now at the University of Manchester being a
0:20:21.640,0:20:26.280
disabled person in that leadership position, it sends out such a strong signal, you know,
0:20:26.280,0:20:30.720
people like me people like Kathy can get into these positions and that's so important.
0:20:30.720,0:20:34.640
I know you're dying to speak. I'm also going to just prompt a question in both
0:20:34.640,0:20:37.720
your minds because we are talking about excellence and Leadership,
0:20:37.720,0:20:42.200
and about being World leading. I love that phrase. And knowing that we've
0:20:42.200,0:20:47.400
got a way to go to get there, however I believe strongly that there's no way
0:20:47.400,0:20:51.600
on earth that we can't get there if we work collectively together and I'm bringing the
0:20:51.600,0:20:54.920
right people in the right resources. So I'd like you to be thinking about how we can go
0:20:54.920,0:21:01.312
from where we are to where we really want to be.
0:21:01.312,0:21:04.911
>>PATRICK: ... Not like that. Yeah, it's a big question.
0:21:04.911,0:21:08.640
Um, and and maybe like Kathy the key to this is to break it down into small, more small things,
0:21:08.640,0:21:14.360
Um I guess one really obvious thing we could do, I could certainly do
0:21:14.360,0:21:22.800
is take away with my leadership team with SLT and encourage them with their leadership teams to consciously, put this on the agenda.
0:21:22.800,0:21:29.240
You know, we're all very busy. There's a lot of a lot going on in the University,
0:21:29.240,0:21:33.360
I still think we're feeling the legacy effects of, of the pandemic.
0:21:33.360,0:21:36.120
Um, not everybody's feeling in a great place.
0:21:36.120,0:21:39.480
We're worrying about workload, uh, rightly and all those issues.
0:21:39.480,0:21:49.040
And Um sometimes that means the agendas that we have are either very long or not really prioritised
0:21:49.040,0:21:57.160
and I think for me, you know, saying that this would be a top priority agenda item for all of our discussions.
0:21:57.160,0:22:03.560
Uh, would be a really good first step because partly, because you know,
0:22:03.560,0:22:05.967
I certainly don't have all the answers, far, far from it.
0:22:05.967,0:22:12.000
And if we can empower and encourage all of our teams to have the conversation and be empowered to do things,
0:22:12.000,0:22:15.120
we can take those small steps right across the university.
0:22:15.120,0:22:20.640
>>KATHY: I think the one thing I can say to that is, is for those teams that have those conversations
0:22:20.640,0:22:23.000
and think, oh, I could do this or I could do that.
0:22:23.000,0:22:27.360
Please don't do that without including us as disabled people, you know,
0:22:27.360,0:22:31.200
it's so important that we're included and we co-produce this, these things.
0:22:31.200,0:22:36.680
Um, because and even groups of disabled people, we're all very different.
0:22:36.680,0:22:42.920
We all have... Even people with the same condition have different
needs.
0:22:42.920,0:22:47.640
So we really need to be included in those conversations.
0:22:47.640,0:22:51.578
I posted something recently on on LinkedIn.
0:22:51.578,0:22:55.320
Um, just something simple and I just said,
0:22:55.320,0:23:00.760
you know, this is me, I'm disabled person, but I'm disabled by the environment around me.
0:23:00.760,0:23:05.120
I'm not disabled by my conditions. I'm not disabled because I've had cancer,
0:23:05.120,0:23:09.407
because I've got anchylosing spondylitis because I can't walk very far.
0:23:09.407,0:23:15.236
My brain is as good as it's ever been. You know, I can contribute as much as I ever have.
0:23:15.736,0:23:21.280
I just can't physically get there that easily or I can't get through the door, you know.
0:23:21.280,0:23:29.160
Um, And and if you can see disabled people doing that and you talk to them, that's so much more powerful.
0:23:29.160,0:23:33.120
Um, you know, that co-production is so important.
0:23:33.120,0:23:38.520
>>JACKIE: And again, back to these conversations that is partly why we want to do this to make visible
0:23:38.520,0:23:41.720
uh the stories behind the the lived experience.
0:23:41.720,0:23:45.040
Um, Patrick, I don't know if you were going to jump in the but I was also going to ask,
0:23:45.040,0:23:50.680
you know, you've given us a really good idea about you prioritising this area in inclusion,
0:23:50.680,0:23:55.800
but you both also talked perhaps a little bit in the abstract about what that would mean.
0:23:55.800,0:23:57.400
So you've talked about co-production
0:23:57.400,0:24:04.120
not don't nothing about us without us is the mantra we're us in disabled spaces.
0:24:04.120,0:24:05.025
But what practically speaking might that look like,
0:24:05.025,0:24:13.800
What would it be helpful for you as Reggiestar ... registrar and your senior, um, Leaders to know,
0:24:13.800,0:24:17.533
to be able to start those conversations
0:24:17.533,0:24:19.720
because often it's a case of people just don't know where to start.
0:24:19.720,0:24:21.560
>>KATHY: Yeah.
0:24:21.560,0:24:24.273
>>PATRICK: But isn't that the point you you started with the conversation?
0:24:24.273,0:24:32.400
Um, so the point I was going to make there earlier was that we had a PSLT leadership away day recently in our amazing Museum.
0:24:32.400,0:24:40.440
And uh, we talk a lot within our leadership team about how do we think about our services
0:24:40.440,0:24:42.730
and how do we design our services
0:24:42.730,0:24:49.880
and, and sometimes there's a risk of just thinking about what we think the services should look like,
0:24:49.880,0:24:53.120
whereas Kathy's point that, you know,
0:24:53.120,0:24:58.480
we really got to talk to our colleagues and our students and our community about what are the services that
they need
0:24:58.480,0:25:02.200
and how do they need those services delivered to them.
0:25:02.200,0:25:08.040
Um, so we invited a group of of students led by the Student Union,
0:25:08.040,0:25:12.840
to our away day and some are representing uh diverse groups
0:25:12.840,0:25:15.024
and we had an amazing conversation.
0:25:15.024,0:25:16.840
>>JACKIE: I bet
0:25:16.840,0:25:22.520
>>PATRICK: Okay, so I I I things that I didn't even think about came up in the conversation,
0:25:22.520,0:25:27.880
so without overcomplicating it or oversimplifying it starting with the conversation
0:25:28.840,0:25:32.120
will lead to something that we haven't thought about.
0:25:32.120,0:25:37.920
>>KATHY: Yeah, definitely. Definitely, I mean it'll stop.
0:25:37.920,0:25:40.819
Do you know what? It'll stop that angry disabled person,
0:25:40.819,0:25:45.840
you know, that did person that that can't get through the door to their lecture
0:25:45.840,0:25:52.000
or can't access a toilet because somebody's put a padlock on the
outside of an accessible toilet
0:25:52.000,0:25:58.040
or, you know, those, those kind of things that turn us into those angry disabled people
0:25:58.040,0:26:06.160
because actually, it's so frustrating because you don't know what
that person has experienced the rest of their day.
0:26:06.160,0:26:12.840
If that one thing has made them, angry it could just be a culmination of lots of things that have gone on
0:26:12.840,0:26:17.520
but if we don't talk to people, that's never going to change.
0:26:17.520,0:26:22.920
>>JACKIE: Yeah, indeed. Um, I'm going to come in very quickly and talk about,
0:26:22.920,0:26:25.453
um, you've talked about it being exhausting, Kathy,
0:26:25.453,0:26:28.680
the reality of the day-to-dayness, you know, this is about lived experience
0:26:28.680,0:26:29.960
and the day-to-dayness of doing this.
0:26:29.960,0:26:32.800
And we've talked about having those conversations,
0:26:32.800,0:26:35.160
but I still want to push a little bit more on
0:26:35.160,0:26:38.080
there are people who don't feel, um, comfortable,
0:26:38.080,0:26:39.640
>>KATHY: Yeah,
0:26:39.640,0:26:42.800
>>JACKIE: in having those conversations. So do you have any thoughts?
0:26:42.800,0:26:45.380
I think it's beholden on us as a university to ensure that
0:26:45.380,0:26:50.240
people can find safe spaces to have those conversations and speak to individuals.
0:26:50.240,0:26:52.840
And I think the mood is Shifting.
0:26:52.840,0:26:55.840
I think we're seeing and hearing more of that.
0:26:55.840,0:27:02.960
But do you have any thoughts about how we can improve with regards to people who might be reluctant hesitant to share?
0:27:02.960,0:27:05.640
>>KATHY: I've got thoughts. You know I've got thoughts, Jackie
0:27:05.640,0:27:08.360
>>JACKIE: mm but that's what these conversations are about sharing those thoughts.
0:27:08.360,0:27:10.760
>>KATHY: Yeah, absolutely. I think Do you know what?
0:27:10.760,0:27:15.400
As part of my leadership and and yes, I am looked at as a leader.
0:27:15.400,0:27:20.120
Um, I'm very open and honest and I share my story
0:27:20.120,0:27:27.840
I use storytelling as part of my practise and it works, and it starts people feeling safe to open those conversations.
0:27:27.840,0:27:31.040
I want to see our leadership team.
0:27:31.160,0:27:35.760
We don't see members of our leadership team with disabilities,
0:27:35.760,0:27:41.120
we don't see them being open and honest, because I'm sure there are
members of our leadership team,
0:27:41.120,0:27:46.179
who have, mental health problems, who have long-term health conditions,
0:27:46.179,0:27:49.569
who have disabilities but they're not visible about them.
0:27:49.569,0:27:54.501
And I really I think that is one big thing that we could do.
0:27:54.501,0:28:00.320
Um, It's not my one big thing that I will come to later,
0:28:00.320,0:28:06.760
but it is another thing that that we could do make people feel safe.
0:28:06.760,0:28:13.240
You know, to see that actually the people who are running the university are living this experience as well,
0:28:13.240,0:28:18.520
um, as the people who are, you know, in the lower grades.
0:28:18.520,0:28:19.020
Does that make sense?
0:28:19.020,0:28:23.800
>>PATRICK: Well, it's borne out in the, in the data as well, Kathy.
0:28:23.800,0:28:28.960
you know, fewer senior staff have shared shared a disability
0:28:28.960,0:28:33.880
and and as you say, I'm sure that that's not because there aren't any.
0:28:33.880,0:28:38.640
They're just not willing or feeling comfortable about about sharing.
0:28:38.640,0:28:45.560
Um, I have to say, I don't know what the answer is to helping those senior leaders to feel comfortable about sharing
0:28:45.560,0:28:50.240
uh, Uh, so I'm sorry about that.
0:28:50.240,0:28:52.440
>>JACKIE: No, Well I think that's something for me to take away Patrick
0:28:52.440,0:28:52.600
>>PATRICK: Yeah.
0:28:52.600,0:28:53.100
>>JACKIE: I think that Falls within my remit.
0:28:53.100,0:28:59.080
>>PATRICK: Yeah. I I do think that's an area that maybe it's like so many things you know.
0:28:59.080,0:29:03.960
Leaders. Ideally will lead, by example, right? Yeah. This is probably an area where
0:29:03.960,0:29:05.180
we could we could improve.
0:29:05.180,0:29:08.600
>>JACKIE: Great. Well, it's good to think about, you know, where we can improve.
0:29:08.600,0:29:11.960
We've got lots of positive energy coming from this conversation.
0:29:11.960,0:29:18.280
I think in terms of commitment, what we can do together and how we can, open up the conversation more broadly
0:29:18.280,0:29:22.520
and give people licence and permission to talk about that in a safe way
0:29:22.520,0:29:23.520
with no repercussions.
0:29:23.520,0:29:28.360
So we're coming to the end of the conversation now and I, as you know,
0:29:28.360,0:29:32.520
Have already prompted you to to think about just one thing.
0:29:32.520,0:29:34.400
What one thing would you want to do?
0:29:34.400,0:29:36.640
So Kathy do you want to start by asking Patrick and then
0:29:36.640,0:29:40.720
>>KATHY: Yeah, of course. So Patrick what? One thing would make a
difference.
0:29:40.720,0:29:48.200
Sorry. What one thing will you commit to do? Sorry, as a result of
our conversation today.
0:29:48.200,0:29:53.520
>>PATRICK: Um, so I I've kind of changed it based on the conversation that we've had today
0:29:53.520,0:29:59.320
but to me, it's it's a renewed commitment to working with my team
0:29:59.320,0:30:02.320
because I, I can't do things myself on my own.
0:30:02.320,0:30:06.360
Well, I can do certain things on myself, but I think my most important role is
0:30:06.360,0:30:09.560
as a leader within a team within a wider team.
0:30:09.560,0:30:14.600
And what I'm recommitting to today, is that our leadership team will put this on our agenda,
0:30:14.600,0:30:19.064
will make a part of our objective setting as a team and and as individuals,
0:30:19.040,0:30:20.000
>>JACKIE: That's fantastic
0:30:20.000,0:30:21.000
>>KATHY: Thank you
0:30:21.000,0:30:24.600
>>JACKIE: And now it's your turn to ask Kathy her question.
0:30:24.600,0:30:33.400
>>PATRICK: ok, Kathy, so what's the one thing that would make a difference to your lived experience here at our University?
0:30:33.400,0:30:39.040
>>KATHY: The one thing I think for for me and I know a lot of disabled staff that I talk
0:30:39.040,0:30:48.040
to would be that Advocate role to to try and take some of the burden off us disabled people
0:30:48.040,0:30:56.400
to fight for what we need. We, we need leadership advocacy Um to help us do that.
0:30:56.400,0:31:07.560
Um, you know my my nine to five is wonderful, I love my job but I'm I genuinely I am exhausted.
0:31:07.560,0:31:14.160
Um, and and we need that advocacy from so it isn't just my voice.
0:31:14.160,0:31:19.600
You know, isn't just Jackie's voice, but it's your voice too Patrick or it's Nalin's voice.
0:31:19.600,0:31:25.240
It's, you know, Duncan's voice when he arrives, um, that is saying we need to
0:31:25.240,0:31:27.840
be doing better for our disabled people.
0:31:27.840,0:31:30.760
>>PATRICK: Uh, now that you mentioned Duncan
0:31:30.760,0:31:35.434
I I can't help saying to you that in the conversations that we've had with him.
0:31:35.400,0:31:43.480
So far, very early conversations have been about inclusivity have been about equality, diversity, and inclusion In our University.
0:31:43.480,0:31:49.880
He, he's genuinely passionate about this, which is, which is, which is wonderful,
0:31:49.880,0:31:52.720
um, on the advocacy point. I will take that away as well.
0:31:52.720,0:32:02.600
With all my leadership group, and my peers and and talk about the need
for all of us to talk up about these issues.
0:32:02.600,0:32:08.120
>>JACKIE: Thank you both very much um, just for the record so that people know who will listen to this.
0:32:08.120,0:32:12.000
Um, we've been talking about Duncan who's Professor Duncan Iverson, who's the new Vice Chancellor
0:32:12.043,0:32:14.239
Who's going to be joining us in the Autumn.
0:32:14.239,0:32:19.480
And we know that he's strongly committed to Equality, diversity and inclusion.
0:32:19.480,0:32:27.560
So I just wanted to finish by saying thank you both of you very, very much indeed today for having a very lively conversation.
0:32:27.560,0:32:32.520
And I think we've opened up some you know, real points of discussion that we're going to commit to and take forward.
0:32:32.520,0:32:37.400
And I just wanted to wrap up by saying as a result of the University of Manchester with Kathy's help,
0:32:37.400,0:32:41.160
achieving the Disability Confident Leader status.
0:32:41.160,0:32:45.440
One of the things that will follow that, that Kathy and I are currently working on is an
0:32:45.440,0:32:51.760
action plan with action owners. So we'll be sure to feed this discussion into that action plan
0:32:51.760,0:32:55.400
and maybe think of it as a blueprint for working with other parts of the university as well.
0:32:55.400,0:33:01.920
So thank you both very much and lovely to see you. Thanks for participating. Any final words,
0:33:01.920,0:33:06.880
>>KATHY: Just to thank Patrick for listening. I know it's not always easy kind of
0:33:06.880,0:33:11.880
listening about these conversations and and so I'm really grateful for
0:33:11.880,0:33:14.268
giving us the time to do this.
0:33:14.268,0:33:15.423
>>JACKIE: Thank you, Kathy,
0:33:15.423,0:33:19.200
>>PATRICK: I just want to thank both of you. You are wonderful colleagues in a great institution.
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