Let's Talk Disability - Being a Disabled PGR
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>>JACKIE: So welcome to episode two of the
Let's Talk Disability series. I'm Jackie
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Carter. I'm a Professor in Statistical
Literacy in The University of Manchester,
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and I'm also the EDI Academic Lead for disability.
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>>JACKIE: And the purpose of
these in conversation pieces
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is to have two people speak about
lived experience of disability.
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>>JACKIE: And so we have Laura here,
who's going to introduce herself in
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a minute, who will speak about her lived
experience of disability as a PGR student.
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>>JACKIE: And I have Colette, who's the Vice
President for Research at the University of
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Manchester, who is one of the senior leaders at
the university. And the aim of these conversations
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is to be in dialogue about disability in order
that we can learn more about what it means to
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be a PGR student or a member of staff,
both academic or professional services,
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so that we can understand better what it means
to be disabled at The University of Manchester.
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>>JACKIE: I'm going to start by asking Laura
if you can introduce yourself and then I'll
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do the same for Colette. So anything that
you'd like the listeners to know about you,
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your role and why you're sitting
in this chair today, please Laura.
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>>LAURA: I'm Laura Howard. I'm a third year
PGR in archaeology. I'm also co-chair of the
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Disabled Staff Network at Manchester and
I co-run the disabled PGR group here. So,
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I've physical and cognitive disabilities.
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Because of a brain injury. I was in a
little bit of an accident when I was 22
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and because of that have chronic pain and fatigue,
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and on the cognitive side I have
trouble with memory and comprehension.
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Luckily neither skills are needed in a
PhD! It also affects my speech. So, it's
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a bit like Morecambe and Wise. - all the right
words, just not necessarily in the right order.
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So if at any point, Colette, you can't
understand me, please let me know. I
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promise I won't get offended. And it also has
an effect on my ability to moderate swearing,
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which always makes situations
like this quite interesting.
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I became involved in activism for disabled
PGRs (postgraduate researchers) at Manchester
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because when I joined the university,
I felt like I was the only disabled
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PGR here and I was facing a lot of barriers
that my non-disabled peers weren't facing.
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And so when we got the opportunity to start
the disabled PGR group, it was suddenly like,
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oh my god, there's fifty of us and we're
all sort of facing the same issues.
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So, from there it felt like, well, we
can build on this. We can we actually
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use our voice collectively to
try and get some changes made.
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And since then I've been
mithering Jackie pretty much
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non-stop. It's resulted in me being here today.
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>>JACKIE: Fantastic. Thank you, Laura. I
don't see it as mithering. I see it working
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together collaboratively on issues
that need addressing. Thank you.
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Colette, could ask you to do the same please.
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>>COLETTE: Yes, I'm Colette Fagan,
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I'm Vice President for Research and that
includes looking after our postgraduate
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researchers and our research staff as
well as our broader research strategy.
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And I'm a member of the senior team,
which is the executive team of the
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organisation working with our
President and Vice Chancellor.
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I'm professor in the School of Social
Science and a lot of my research over
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my career has been on issues of equality and
diversity, primarily through the lens of gender
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inequalities and looking at the situation in
different organisations, different countries.
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And I am a member of the university's EDI
group which is leading the implementation
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of our strategy with a sponsorship of
Black and minority ethnic staff which
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was …. there was a number of roles and
I chose this one and was asked to do it.
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>>JACKIE: Thank you very much both. So the
purpose, as I say of this conversation is
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really to uncover, to give a voice to disabled
staff and students, but to uncover not just
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the barriers that are faced but also the
strengths that we bring to those roles.
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I'm going to hand over to you both to have the
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conversation and I'll jump
in at subsequent points.
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But Laura, over to you. What is it you'd
like to start by sharing with Colette?
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>>LAURA: So as you were saying, there are
a lot of strengths to being a disabled PGR.
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For instance, I spent sort of six years rotting
in a bed in my parents’ home being looked after
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by them before I was referred to a neurological
clinic and they got me back up and running.
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So the worst has already happened to me.
So I'm hugely resilient, which is great on
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a PhD because everyone's PhD goes wrong all the
time - I hope that's true, and it's not just me
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but my attitude is very much - as long as
I'm upright and my bra’s on, it's a good day.
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As well because I have to adapt constantly to
my body I’m very adaptable when things go wrong.
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I'm also really surprisingly good at planning
because I constantly have to have my brain on.
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Right – my medication … need to keep that sorted,
I need to keep doctor's appointments sorted,
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and need to make sure I've sent all
the right stuff to the benefits office.
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I'm already good with planning on the
PhD, and because I can't leave things
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to the last minute because I don't know
how I'm going to feel at the last minute,
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I'm never sort of submitting rushed work.
It's always very carefully thought through.
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I think another strength is, well, not memory,
because I forgot what I was going to say now.
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It'll come back in a second. So it's
like a Windows computer, just, yeah,
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I've got a very different perspective as
well than sort of other PGRs on the course.
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And because of that, because I work
weirdly in decolonial practice,
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it's had an effect on that because I'm
already very EDI-aware. So there are
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a lot of strengths that I think
we do bring that apply to a PhD.
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There are some barriers as well
though. There are some things we
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face that are non-disabled. PGRs don't.
So, things like supervisor relationships.
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When you first meet your supervisor,
you want to impress them.
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You know you've picked them for a reason. You
want them to think they've not made a mistake
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and you don't want him to feel like you're
a problem PGR who just moans all the time,
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so it's difficult to sort of explain to them, oh,
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I can't do this. I'm not feeling too
good, or I can't go to this event.
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As well. It's difficult to
engage in the PGR community,
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which is actually what led
to our disabled PGR group.
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So for instance, in archaeology, our seminars
are at five o’clock, followed by networking.
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I'm done by 4. My body’s give up. I need to
be on the couch and not speaking to people,
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So, research seminars are out. Conferences.
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I recently went to a conference in Belfast.
It was a four-day conference. It went really
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well but then I needed a week off downtime. As
well, a lot of us are self-funded because we -
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I don't want to generalise - but a lot of us
in the group don't look like great applicants.
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Take me for instance, I had my accident
right at the beginning of a Masters I
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was doing in Sheffield and at the
time we were told we anticipate
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that Masters students would be
prepared for all eventualities.
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So, there was no support for
me and I managed to get a pass,
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but it was barely a pass which good news …
disability support has improved. Well done.
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I then spent six years, as I
said, rotting in a bed. So,
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when I rocked up to The University of Manchester
with me barely a pass and me nothing on my CV,
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they pretty much slammed the door in my face.
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My supervisor, he really believed in the
project and he did everything to try and
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get me in. He had me write reports
and how my disability affected me,
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but at the end of the day I was super
impressed that I'd relearned to make
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toast for myself without burning the house
down. But it didn't look impressive on a CV.
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So I ended up having to do a second
Masters, which went really well, did great.
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I'm on the PhD now, but I am a little
bit [that] I had to spend 10 grand to
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prove that I'm as capable, and it
has a knock on effect on funding,
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and other members of our group … where
it took them five years instead of three
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to complete a Bachelors because they've
had time off for treatment. Similarly,
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they've not got any experience.
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So a lot of us are self-funded and
that means we can't really afford
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to pay for things like conferences. I've
rambled on a lot there haven't I Colette?
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>>COLETTE: You haven't rambled. You've
actually been quite organised, which is
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quite hard in live conversations
for anybody, So, well done.
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And I think the points you've drawn out are
really self-reflective about resilience,
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adaptability, building in that buffer
rather than doing it just-in-time,
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having to think through your
project in different ways.
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These are all things that every
postgraduate and academic needs
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because of the nature of the work we
do. So you are pulling on your strengths
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while also making it clear it's
taking you a long and arduous
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journey to be able to recognise and
develop those strengths for academic
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work. So a lot of people should
be very much in awe of you Laura.
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>>LAURA: Ohh thank you. I need to take
you home and introduce you to me Mum,
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she’d be made-up if you said that to her,
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but that is, I've just remembered
now. The other strength is
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I didn't need to be told when I started what
my weaknesses were. I knew I was going to
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be struggling with writing and knew I
would struggle with journal articles,
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so I knew what workshops I needed.
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So when it came time to my first panel
meeting, it was very short because I'd
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already addressed all my problems and knew that
I had a lot of difficulty remembering the bones.
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So I went into the lab twice a week just to
refresh myself, and I continue to do that.
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So yeah, so it was just another
little strength I remembered.
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>>COLETTE: So you're having to
work harder and to compensate
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for weaknesses in what you can
bring that you've recognised.
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And again, that is really incredible. It does
make me wonder why you chose an academic pathway.
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>>LAURA: Yeah, it's a little
bit of an interesting path.
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So I always loved archaeology, but as you
might have noticed from the accent I’m from
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a council estate, and I felt like heritage
was something you did if you had money.
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So, I did forensics for my undergrad because I
was like, well, that's going to have a job in it.
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But then I had my accident and
it was a very distinct moment.
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I got a letter from DWP saying we accept that
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you're disabled. Welcome
to the scrap heap of life.
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And it just felt like I was done.
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And so when I was admitted to the Walton
Centre, they were fantastic. We did … like
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it wasn't just physio, it was CBT therapy
and stuff and they gave me a goal to work on
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and for the first time in my life I had a
little bit of money and time and I was like,
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well, I've always loved heritage.
I'm going to go and do this
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and as well because I'm quite petty,
when they knocked me back, I was like,
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ohh, you knocked me back. I'm not leaving.
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>>COLETTE: So another key element
of the jigsaw of success in academia
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is choosing something you have a
burning passion, great interest,
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don't mind working really hard and
quite slowly to see the results.
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So that is inspiring to hear that you
still love archaeology after all this time.
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>>LAURA: I know it's great. It's one of the
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most welcoming [Schools] I'd
say SALC for disabled PGRs.
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I think there's just a general attitude
of it's been there 10,000 years,
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what's one more day going to
count? So it's very relaxed.
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Actually, because it's osteology, I
also work in the biomedical school
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because that's where the tissue bank
is and it's completely different there.
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So my supervisors have completely
different attitudes, which worked
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out great for me because one is
basically lying down all the time,
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incredibly relaxed and the other is very like
so on it - the one, the biomedical school.
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But yeah, I'd say in general SALC it's very
relaxed, it's very welcoming, very aware of EDI.
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>>JACKIE: Can I jump in Laura
first of all to say what SALC is,
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so the School of Arts, Languages and
Cultures at The University of Manchester,
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but also maybe to pick up a little
bit around the role of supervisors.
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You know, you've talked about having very
different but very supportive supervisors.
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Is there anything that you would
want to elicit further from that
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role of a supervisor to a
disabled PGR like yourself?
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>>LAURA: One of the big barriers, I think,
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is that you don't really, really
don't want to disappoint them.
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And so I do lived experience of disability
training for different departments,
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and I put up a photograph of me
looking disgraceful. You'd be
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able to tell what I'd eaten that week
because it's encrusted on me ‘jamas.
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And I do that because that's a representation
of the person I don't want my supervisor to see.
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I don't want him to see me. I
want him to see me as an academic
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and even though he is lovely and could not …
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genuinely he's got three disabled
PGRs and there's a reason for that.
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But still, I have a lot of difficulty talking
to him about the barriers I face because I
0:14:09.200,0:14:15.960
don't want to let him down and I don't want
his view to change of me from academic to …
0:14:15.960,0:14:19.120
…you know when you have a family party and
it's 7pm and you have to put your gran in
0:14:19.120,0:14:25.520
the taxi and you all go, ohh, it's time to
go home. I don't want to be that person and
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it's really difficult to get past that barrier
and talk to him about it. And I know from
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experience as well that some of our PGRs who
are more able to talk to their supervisors …
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their supervisors, it's not through malice,
it's they just don't know what to do. So,
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the stock answer is to go to DASS
(Disability Advisory Support Service),
0:14:51.920,0:14:53.760
but it is a difficult one.
0:14:55.800,0:15:00.680
I guess sort of practical advice
I’d give is if you're a supervisor,
0:15:00.680,0:15:04.280
re-read DASS reports monthly
because you're going to forget.
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It's only natural. It happened
to me in the first year,
0:15:08.760,0:15:13.160
So with the physical disabilities,
you can see I've got a crutch,
0:15:13.160,0:15:19.280
if I sent an e-mail saying I can't come in today
- which I hated doing - I'm in a lot of pain,
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then they'd be like, fine, get it. Not a problem.
0:15:22.560,0:15:26.400
But I was working with another supervisor on bones
0:15:26.400,0:15:29.080
and she was sending me journal
articles to read to refresh my
0:15:29.080,0:15:33.080
knowledge. And then when she's asking
me about in the next week and saying,
0:15:33.080,0:15:38.320
yeah, the journal article, the one
with the words on the paper, yeah,
0:15:38.320,0:15:41.920
because my memory just couldn't
retain that information.
0:15:41.920,0:15:45.200
And she was getting frustrated. She
wasn't being horrible or anything.
0:15:45.200,0:15:49.440
But we had a panel meeting in my
first year, my first panel meeting,
0:15:49.440,0:15:53.760
and my external examiner asked, how does
your disability impact you? And I just
0:15:53.760,0:15:58.040
brought up. I've got the cognitive issues
that affects my memory and my comprehension,
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and just having that reminder, it
completely changed their attitude.
0:16:02.280,0:16:08.800
But yeah, so re-read, especially for those
hidden disabilities. It'll just help it sink in.
0:16:08.800,0:16:13.920
Another thing that I did that you can ask your
PGR maybe to do if they feel comfortable is I
0:16:13.920,0:16:19.600
wrote down a list of everything I needed
to do as a PhD student, from conferences
0:16:19.600,0:16:24.760
to reading journal articles, right down to just
sitting in a chair for extended periods of time.
0:16:24.760,0:16:29.680
And then I wrote down every way my
disability would impact that area,
0:16:29.680,0:16:33.680
and then strategies for things
I could do to combat that.
0:16:33.680,0:16:38.160
So if they're comfortable, maybe do that with them
0:16:38.160,0:16:43.200
and just let them know that you're there. Don't do
it in the sympathetic head tilt or you poor little
0:16:43.200,0:16:48.680
soldier way. Just be like I understand that
there are barriers that you're going to face.
0:16:48.680,0:16:56.344
If there's anything I can do,
please feel free to talk to me.
0:16:56.349,0:17:01.120
>>COLETTE: So I think there's two
things there. There's a lot of things,
0:17:01.120,0:17:04.840
but two practical things. One is
0:17:06.800,0:17:09.800
DASS may be under-resourced and
I think that is something for
0:17:09.800,0:17:14.560
the disability team to pick up with the EDI group.
0:17:14.560,0:17:20.320
>>JACKIE: We should say what DASS is. Oh,
for disability advice for staff and students.
0:17:20.320,0:17:27.880
>>COLETTE: Because one of the things as a
postgraduate supervisor is you have to be able
0:17:27.880,0:17:37.160
to signpost your students to a number of sources.
Partly because the supervisor is primarily there
0:17:37.160,0:17:49.120
for academic supervision and some of our
staff who make excellent academic supervisors
0:17:49.120,0:17:56.480
are not going to be equipped to identify early
onset of mental ill health and wellbeing or
0:17:56.480,0:18:06.800
financial issues or complex disabilities which
range across the whole spectrum of needs. So
0:18:06.800,0:18:14.000
we we've got a tricky role here at the
university which is equipping people to do the
0:18:14.000,0:18:25.120
core bit that they can do, which is supervising a
specialised area, while also helping you navigate
0:18:25.120,0:18:31.960
the range of services for specialist
support across as I said a number of
0:18:31.960,0:18:36.840
welfare and wellbeing issues.
But what we do also .. we have
0:18:36.840,0:18:42.640
expectations on our supervisors,
and we do have a toolkit about
0:18:44.880,0:18:49.680
what's expected on both sides of
the relationship-stroke-contract.
0:18:50.800,0:18:57.760
And what we could do specifically here is ensure
0:18:57.760,0:19:08.400
that how disability is addressed in that toolkit,
is done properly. And I think your idea of
0:19:08.400,0:19:13.680
or …… the thing that you
have used about mapping out
0:19:13.680,0:19:21.600
where your particular obstacles are in
relation to the things we expect as part of a
0:19:22.600,0:19:27.000
a standard academic path, not
everybody does them anyway but
0:19:27.000,0:19:33.120
conferences etcetera etcetera - is
a really practical thing we can do.
0:19:33.120,0:19:39.640
Most people find it easier when they've got a
practical task in front of them to start that
0:19:39.640,0:19:49.400
conversation and to understand and avoid
the ‘there there’ approach through to the
0:19:49.400,0:19:53.240
sorry you can't see that on the radio
- frozen face - because it's a rabbit
0:19:53.240,0:19:57.680
in the headlights who doesn't know what
to do. And this comes up with disability.
0:19:57.680,0:20:03.480
It can come up with being a part of an
underrepresented group and with others.
0:20:03.480,0:20:07.800
So it's not specific to disability, but I
think there are things we could do around
0:20:07.800,0:20:15.960
the toolkit to open that conversation and to
help raise awareness with the supervisor about
0:20:15.960,0:20:21.760
your specific needs as a postgraduate,
but also in the process the wider
0:20:21.760,0:20:24.760
issues around different disabilities.
0:20:24.760,0:20:26.000
>>JACKIE: Thank you.
0:20:26.000,0:20:29.440
I'm going to come back on that to
both of you as well because Laura,
0:20:29.440,0:20:32.160
you're here today, I've disclosed
[shared] I have disabilities,
0:20:32.160,0:20:36.640
you've shared that you have disabilities, but
not everybody feels comfortable doing that.
0:20:36.640,0:20:41.760
So I think one of the issues
that we face as a university,
0:20:41.760,0:20:47.440
as do many organisations, is how
to support everybody regardless of
0:20:47.440,0:20:52.400
whether or not they're able and willing
to share that they have a disability.
0:20:52.400,0:20:55.240
So I don't know if you have any thoughts on
that. I mean certainly the work you've done
0:20:55.240,0:20:59.160
around the Disabled Staff Network
and the PGR group as part of that,
0:20:59.160,0:21:02.520
is there anything you'd want to
say about how we can support,
0:21:02.520,0:21:07.120
how we can be disability inclusive regardless
of whether people share their disability?
0:21:07.120,0:21:15.360
>>LAURA: I think if you just it might be a bit
simplistic, but when you’re designing things.
0:21:15.360,0:21:22.280
So I will say these networking events,
go with the thought process of someone
0:21:22.280,0:21:25.080
who's going to turn up is going
to have to face this barrier.
0:21:25.080,0:21:28.040
Someone's going to have difficulty
getting into the room for this reason.
0:21:29.440,0:21:34.360
Try and cover your bases as
much as possible there as well.
0:21:34.360,0:21:40.000
Make sure you've got a strong … so a big
issue we've had is Report and Support. So
0:21:40.000,0:21:43.560
that's been with the staff network
and as well with our postgraduates.
0:21:43.560,0:21:48.960
They feel like there isn't a place they can
turn to when they do face these barriers,
0:21:48.960,0:21:52.600
when they have these negative
experiences. Unfortunately,
0:21:52.600,0:21:56.720
we've had some disabled PGRs
face abuse and harassment,
0:21:56.720,0:21:59.760
and they don't really trust the university
0:21:59.760,0:22:05.840
in these circumstances and it's very
difficult to get rid of that mindset.
0:22:05.840,0:22:10.640
I think the Disabled Staff Network
and the Disabled PGR group have been
0:22:10.640,0:22:17.040
really good at sort of helping people
to disclose because it's peer support.
0:22:17.040,0:22:22.000
And there's an instant sense when you join
those groups that OK, these people get it,
0:22:22.000,0:22:25.840
they understand what I'm going through
and I'm safe disclosing to them and I
0:22:25.840,0:22:30.240
can tell them what's happened to me and
they're not going to tell anyone else.
0:22:30.240,0:22:35.120
Or if I do need help, they're going to be there
to help me. And we've had that a few times.
0:22:35.120,0:22:37.920
So again, with that person
who was abused on campus,
0:22:37.920,0:22:42.520
we managed to set up a series of meetings with
security to address that. And now they’re buying
0:22:42.520,0:22:47.320
us all panic bracelets where you press
it and Security comes to your location.
0:22:48.720,0:22:52.680
So yeah, having those peer groups.
A few people have said it's been
0:22:52.680,0:22:56.440
a lifesaver for them and it's
a place where it's one of the
0:22:56.440,0:23:02.040
first places they felt safe talking
about everything that affects them.
0:23:02.040,0:23:05.080
So I’d say maybe signpost them
to that, make sure you've got a
0:23:05.080,0:23:09.120
strong Report and Support system, so
when people do have these issues….
0:23:09.120,0:23:18.800
So one of the major ones we have is line managers
disregarding staff’s DASS plans and when they
0:23:18.800,0:23:24.760
report it, nothing gets done. This is what they're
reporting back to me. So, they just give up
0:23:24.760,0:23:27.520
and they don't want to then talk
about other barriers they're facing
0:23:27.520,0:23:30.960
because they feel it's gonna have
a knock-on effect on their career.
0:23:30.960,0:23:32.720
Sorry, that all went very dark.
0:23:32.720,0:23:38.760
>>COLETTE: No, no, it’s unpacking
and being realistic about what an
0:23:38.760,0:23:47.120
organisation can do in steps. And I think
there were, again, if I can just partition,
0:23:47.120,0:23:58.320
so I think Jackie's question was about
undisclosed, unseen disabilities, which is very ..
0:23:58.320,0:24:05.120
I welcome a solution on how you
handle that as an organisation.
0:24:05.120,0:24:10.040
But the points that you were making were about
0:24:10.040,0:24:15.360
not disclosing when you've hit
barriers because you've given up.
0:24:16.280,0:24:21.680
And so this is how my brain
works most of the time.
0:24:22.600,0:24:25.640
so the group that you've talked about is about
0:24:25.640,0:24:29.040
that collective mentoring
and coaching where you can,
0:24:30.120,0:24:37.280
you've got someone to turn to, to talk to without
there being a fear of repercussions. And if that
0:24:37.280,0:24:44.280
group really functions well, they also know
how to work the university in terms of both
0:24:44.280,0:24:51.360
the official routes but the workarounds
of how you escalate to the right person.
0:24:51.360,0:24:57.760
So that's why having staff groups as one form
of mentoring and coaching is really important.
0:24:59.960,0:25:07.680
The other I find hard as a
member of the senior team
0:25:09.000,0:25:15.360
and as a sociologist, is when you
unpack, people feel or they've heard,
0:25:15.360,0:25:21.040
and they're already positioning themselves.
And then we've got two things to do.
0:25:21.040,0:25:27.400
We've got the feelings, emotions,
trust, which is hard stuff to
0:25:27.400,0:25:33.440
shift and a lot of us don't find it as
comfortable as driving other things.
0:25:34.120,0:25:38.600
But more important, not more
importantly, as a sociologist we,
0:25:38.600,0:25:45.520
I have to think of the structure as well,
which is … this is one kind of data,
0:25:45.520,0:25:48.600
but it's telling you there's something
about the structure people don't
0:25:48.600,0:25:53.240
understand because we've not explained
it properly or because it's not working.
0:25:53.800,0:25:59.800
So I can put my hand on my heart and say
I think our Support and Report service
0:25:59.800,0:26:04.440
works really well because I've seen the
resourcing, I've seen the people in it,
0:26:04.440,0:26:08.800
we get annual reports on who uses it and so forth.
0:26:09.680,0:26:12.840
It's not perfect, but I trust that system and I
0:26:12.840,0:26:17.520
think it's got better. So
for me it's how do we get
0:26:17.520,0:26:24.720
the staff group, among others, to
understand that most organisations
0:26:24.720,0:26:27.400
are going to let people down at
different times, but there are
0:26:27.400,0:26:36.800
ways through. The journey isn't always as
painful as it may feel if we're relying on
0:26:36.800,0:26:43.480
memories or other people's experiences,
which are very true and valid,
0:26:43.480,0:26:48.960
but things may have moved on and we need
to be able to get that message through.
0:26:50.000,0:26:58.880
The second bit I find hard here as well
is when people want to use .. this is
0:26:58.880,0:27:03.720
where this is a weak bit of a Report and
Support service … which is where people
0:27:03.720,0:27:11.200
want to report unattributed about something
that happened somewhere in the university,
0:27:11.200,0:27:15.400
and there's no detail to go on.
So, our goal is to really try and
0:27:15.400,0:27:22.000
get people into a space where they know
and trust it's a confidential service,
0:27:22.000,0:27:28.720
but we need to know a little bit more detail
to be able to do a targeted intervention.
0:27:28.720,0:27:33.960
I’ve got a sense of where there are
hotspots in my other hat - looking
0:27:33.960,0:27:40.200
after research for research misconduct,
I try and work … they’re very small,
0:27:40.200,0:27:44.680
but they are quite isolated. But it means
you can do something effective rather
0:27:44.680,0:27:50.280
than trying to train every single
academic or my team to train them.
0:27:50.280,0:27:57.640
So it's creating with the help of the staff group,
0:27:57.640,0:28:02.680
a confidence to be able to say, even if
it's to say it happened in this School,
0:28:02.680,0:28:06.200
even better if we know the Department
0:28:06.200,0:28:11.120
and if appropriate to move into the
more formal stage where it's actually,
0:28:11.120,0:28:15.360
‘and it was this person, on this date’. There
are very different interventions for both,
0:28:15.360,0:28:20.780
but we can try and improve the environment
that you have to study and work in.
0:28:20.780,0:28:27.440
>>JACKIE: I think you've uncovered an awful lot
through that short part of this conversation.
0:28:28.280,0:28:33.360
I often think that you know the best
system will be where we don't get any
0:28:33.360,0:28:36.760
reporting. OK. So we know that
we do it where we’re inclusive,
0:28:36.760,0:28:40.840
we’re trustworthy, people know
where to go to get the support.
0:28:40.840,0:28:43.280
And I know you're doing a lot of
that behind the scenes yourself,
0:28:43.280,0:28:49.400
Laura. I know because we've talked about
some of those things and certainly on this
0:28:49.400,0:28:56.520
‘In Conversation’ series it's good to touch on,
but without losing sight of some of the really
0:28:56.520,0:29:03.000
good practice that's going on at the university,
across the university but also at local level.
0:29:03.000,0:29:07.640
So, I want to thank you for all the work
that you're doing that in that space.
0:29:07.640,0:29:11.240
>>JACKIE: Yeah. And having safe spaces, you know,
0:29:11.240,0:29:15.880
having safe spaces that people know that
they can go and be listened to. And again,
0:29:15.880,0:29:20.680
one of the purposes of this is having a voice for
people through a disability lens particularly.
0:29:20.680,0:29:23.840
But of course, we're looking
at this intersectionally. So
0:29:23.840,0:29:25.520
I think we do get things wrong.
0:29:25.520,0:29:28.440
I think we have to admit as an
institution, we get things wrong.
0:29:28.440,0:29:32.280
But I think we're also on a
journey together where we're
0:29:32.280,0:29:36.600
trying to improve the lived experience
of people who have disabilities. So
0:29:36.600,0:29:39.720
it's really helpful that you're
bringing these circumstances to
0:29:39.720,0:29:44.200
our attention. So, moving on, we've
unpacked a lot. Is there anything
0:29:44.200,0:29:48.080
else either of you want to touch
on before we move on to the final
0:29:48.080,0:29:53.720
question that I posed for you both, that you
think the listeners would appreciate hearing?
0:29:53.720,0:29:59.200
>>LAURA: I think there's definitely been
an increase in trust since we started
0:29:59.200,0:30:05.200
the disabled PGR group because people have a
name and a face and they know where to turn.
0:30:06.600,0:30:11.120
so Jackie, you come to several focus groups.
We've had Stephen Pierce [from SALC] come to
0:30:11.120,0:30:16.240
several focus groups. Like I said, we've
met with security, we've met with DASS,
0:30:16.240,0:30:19.440
and because we've been able to talk to these
people and they've been able to explain
0:30:19.440,0:30:23.840
their position to them, it has definitely
built up more of a relationship of trust.
0:30:23.840,0:30:25.360
It would be great if that could improve,
0:30:25.360,0:30:31.940
just because I'm a bit knackered
now ….just because I'm a bit tired.
0:30:31.940,0:30:38.560
>>COLETTE: I suppose I'm going to
bounce that one to Jackie in terms
0:30:38.560,0:30:47.520
of thinking about the support that
is provided and can be provided.
0:30:47.520,0:30:52.400
>>COLETTE: I can see why people come
to you with your skill and empathy,
0:30:52.400,0:30:56.760
but you shouldn't have to do it all
yourself. And that's actually something
0:30:56.760,0:31:03.240
we try and teach about leadership of self
for every career stage, is sometimes it's
0:31:03.240,0:31:08.000
about being able to pass it on, but you've
got to be able to pass it on to somebody.
0:31:08.000,0:31:15.880
So I think that's a little bit about our
Disability Advisory Support Service plus
0:31:15.880,0:31:17.840
where you can be the gateway,
0:31:17.840,0:31:24.840
for want of a better word. But some of
the other things should not land on you
0:31:24.840,0:31:31.880
and I’m probably telling you what you
already know, but there is a hardship fund
0:31:32.800,0:31:39.520
that you might be able to tap into
for some of the extra expenses or
0:31:39.520,0:31:44.400
time that you've been spending on this project.
0:31:44.400,0:31:49.000
>>JACKIE: I think you're right to bounce
it to me and hopefully you'll be reassured
0:31:49.000,0:31:55.120
that one of the things I have asked Laura and
the other two co-chairs of the Disabled Staff
0:31:55.120,0:32:00.440
Network is to quantify the amount of time that
they're currently giving to these activities.
0:32:00.440,0:32:05.320
So that we have an evidence base to see the
amount of support that's being requested.
0:32:05.320,0:32:10.480
And if we can't meet it, then we need to
have conversations about what that means.
0:32:10.480,0:32:15.760
So we we're talking to each other.
And I hope you feel supported, Laura,
0:32:15.760,0:32:19.760
but absolutely you need to look after your own
0:32:19.760,0:32:27.520
health, you know, because ultimately if you become
tired then the whole stack of cards falls apart.
0:32:27.520,0:32:33.080
Let's move to the final two questions.
At the end of these conversation pieces,
0:32:33.080,0:32:37.440
I ask each of my guests to
ask the other a question.
0:32:37.440,0:32:44.000
So Laura, I've given you the question
there, so if I could ask you to start
0:32:44.000,0:32:48.040
by asking Colette the question and then
she'll reciprocate and ask you one.
0:32:48.040,0:32:57.040
>>LAURA: So, Colette, what one thing will you
commit to do as a result of this conversation?
0:32:57.040,0:33:00.560
>>COLETTE: I will commit to
go back to our postgraduate
0:33:00.560,0:33:08.680
research team on the broader area
of postgraduate research support.
0:33:08.680,0:33:12.800
I mentioned the Supervisory
Toolkit and I think there's
0:33:12.800,0:33:18.080
a way of integrating with the support
of, without creating more work for you,
0:33:18.080,0:33:24.360
but drawing on the work you've done already
and Jackie's insights and oversight of this,
0:33:24.360,0:33:28.760
how we can integrate this as
part of all the other things,
0:33:28.760,0:33:34.680
but equally legitimate that we
expect our supervisors to do.
0:33:35.240,0:33:43.760
More generally, we have a postgraduate
researcher policy and wellbeing support.
0:33:44.320,0:33:51.520
And I know from earlier conversations
this year that one of the areas which
0:33:51.520,0:33:57.360
they feel they are not doing
as well on as others is some
0:33:57.360,0:34:02.840
of the disability needs of some
students, postgraduate students.
0:34:02.840,0:34:11.800
So I think that's a bit of the organisation I can
work with to help improve things for postgraduate
0:34:11.800,0:34:21.480
researchers with the team who are responsible
for making the environment appropriate for you
0:34:21.480,0:34:23.940
All the other things. I'll leave with Jackie.
0:34:23.940,0:34:31.380
>>JACKIE: Thank you, Colette. And then over to
you to ask Laura the question that I've asked.
0:34:31.380,0:34:36.160
>>COLETTE: What one thing would make
a difference to your experience as a
0:34:36.160,0:34:39.160
University of Manchester postgraduate researcher?
0:34:39.160,0:34:45.440
>>LAURA: So I'll start, by the way, because I
feel like I've slagged UoM off for half an hour.
0:34:45.440,0:34:52.560
It is a welcoming place generally for disabled
people, especially PGRs and the PGR journey. It
0:34:52.560,0:34:56.880
can actually be really suited to disabled
people because there is that flexibility.
0:34:57.920,0:35:00.280
Now this might be a bit vague,
but the one thing that would
0:35:00.280,0:35:05.000
make a difference would be to take away the fight.
0:35:05.000,0:35:12.520
Everything is a constant fight. Fighting
to be included in the PGR community,
0:35:12.520,0:35:17.560
fighting to advance your career by going to
conferences, fighting to get the support you need.
0:35:17.560,0:35:25.960
And it sort of feels like it's strange because
I have less energy and yet I have to do more.
0:35:25.960,0:35:32.040
And this analogy might not make sense but
recently, me and my friend Kat who is a
0:35:32.040,0:35:38.240
non-disabled PGR, we both helped our other
friend move house because we both drive
0:35:38.240,0:35:44.680
and it feels like she's turned up in a brand-new
people carrier. Seven seats, fresh off the lot.
0:35:44.680,0:35:50.240
And I've turned up in a 1984 Ford Cortina
with 3 wheels and smoke coming out of it.
0:35:50.240,0:35:51.560
And they've gone – Right we're going to put all
0:35:51.560,0:35:54.440
the books and heavy stuff in Laura's
car. Don't worry if it doesn't fit,
0:35:54.440,0:35:57.640
we'll just start strapping stuff to
the roof and then we'll all climb in.
0:35:57.640,0:36:00.360
Kat, you take some duvets and pillows.
0:36:00.360,0:36:04.480
And I feel like I'm stood there going, what
are you doing? My crap car cannot take this.
0:36:04.480,0:36:09.680
I'm falling apart. I'm like the car at the end of
the Blues Brothers with everything falling off.
0:36:09.680,0:36:13.400
Why is it all being strapped to me?
0:36:13.400,0:36:17.880
I would say though, it doesn't feel like
that the majority of the time. I do feel,
0:36:17.880,0:36:21.960
especially since we started, the
PGR group included. But a lot of
0:36:21.960,0:36:28.080
us do feel like why do we have to fight
so much? So if you could take that away,
0:36:28.080,0:36:32.440
one thing that might be helpful for
that is just having a name and a face
0:36:32.440,0:36:37.000
just being like ‘ You're a disabled
PGR. You got a problem? Go see Dave’,
0:36:37.000,0:36:39.960
>>COLETTE: We should have that.
0:36:39.960,0:36:44.520
>>JACKIE: Thank you, Laura. Well, thank you
both of you very much for today's very open,
0:36:44.520,0:36:49.600
honest, in-depth and challenging conversation,
0:36:49.600,0:36:52.120
which is actually what I want to
get out of these conversations.
0:36:52.120,0:36:55.720
So I'm going to say thank you and goodbye for now.
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