Let's Talk Disability

Let’s Talk Disability

Episode 5 of Let's Talk Disability, hosted by Professor Jackie Carter, EDI Academic Lead for Disability, is a conversation between Professor Allan Pacey, Deputy Vice President and Deputy Dean of the faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health and Dr Katherine Twomey, Co-Chair of the University of Manchester Neurodivergent Staff Network.

0:00:09.824 - 0:01:11.640
JACKIE: Hello, my name's Jackie Carter. I'm the EDI Disability Academic Lead at the University
Manchester and I've set up a series of in-conversation pieces called Let's Talk Disability.

The reason for this is that I want people who have a disability and who work and study at the University of Manchester to have the opportunity to share what their lived experience, their everyday experience is with somebody in a position of influence, a senior leader at the University. So each episode will feature two guests and each of those guests will have a conversation about what it means to have a disability at the University of Manchester. And at the end of the conversation each will commit to one action, we're calling them one things where they will take away something from the conversation that they've had and do something with it.

I hope you enjoy listening and we'll make of course the transcripts available for everybody. Thank you.

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[MUSIC]

0:01:19.360- 0:01:50.030
JACKIE: Okay, so hello and welcome to episode five. We're on episode five now of the Let's Talk Disability series of conversations and just to repeat, I'm Jackie Carter, I'm the Academic Lead for EDI Disability at the University of Manchester and I live with invisible disabilities and I'm proud to say I've got two guests in the office today, neither of whom I've met before, face to face anyway, and I'm going to hand you over to each of them to introduce themselves and Katie I'm really pleased to see like me you're wearing your sunflower lanyard.

0:01:50.030 – 0:02:00.495
KATIE: I always think it means that people aren't going to sit next to you on the train which is a massive bonus but yeah I think it's great that Manchester support the sunflower scheme, I think it's really helpful.

0:02:00.495 – 0:03:17.190
KATIE: So my name is Katie, my surname is Toomey, I'm a lecturer in language and communicative development in FBMH. I teach on the speech and language therapy program but I'm a researcher rather than a clinician. I've been at Manchester something horrifying like eight years now, this is my first lectureship after a series of post-doctoral
research contracts. The reason I'm here is because I have, actually, I suppose I've got three hidden disabilities actually, I'm autistic and I have generalised anxiety disorder and
panic disorder as well which are obviously things that I need to, to be careful about managing. My autism diagnosis came when I'd been at Manchester I think a couple of years and I had a period of very, quite severe burnout, it was quite debilitating because the lecturer job is just so different to the post-doc job. So, this resulted in me getting cognitive behavioural therapy to manage the anxiety issues which was brilliant, highly recommend everyone get yourselves some CBT. But also, my therapist raised the possibility that there might be a neurodivergence there and that's how I ended up getting diagnosed. So yeah that's kind of my story, how that brings you up to speed.

0:03:17.890,0:03:21.090
JACKIE: Fabulous thank you. Did you want to add on anything about the network?
 
0:03:21.590- 0:03:54.603
KATIE: Oh of course yeah that's kind of an obvious one isn't it. So, I'm also co-chair of the relatively newly formed neurodivergent staff network alongside Matthew Harrison so it's kind of in its infancy at the moment and I will come on to this probably later. There's
a lot of work to do, not very much time to do it in but we've had fabulous support from Jackie, from Kathy Bradley and the EDI directorate as well so we're trying to make baby steps towards getting that more established and being more of a source of support for staff and PGRs.

0:03:54.603 - 0:03:58.328
JACKIE: Great and there's already how many members for people who are wanting to participate?

0:03:58.328- 0:04:39.436
There's over 100 I think, I should have looked this up shouldn't I, obvious one but I know that so Matthew, this is Matthew's idea, I can't take the credit, but I know that the ND network is you know growing apace, there's a lot of neurodivergent people at the university although I've looked at the statistics and I think there's fewer than you would expect based on the population statistics but that might be because maybe the ND network isn't as visible and it's new and that kind of thing but yeah I think there's a lot that can be done at Manchester but in any big organisation to support people like me and we can be absolutely amazing if we're put in the right environment so yes.

0:04:39.436 - 0:04:44.080
JACKIE: Thank you very much. Allan over to you if you could do an intro as well please that would be great.

0:04:44.080 - 0:05:20.760
ALLAN: Well, thank you for having me, my name's Allan Pacey, I have a long title, let me get this right, I am Deputy Dean and Deputy Vice President of the Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health. I've been in the university as we record this about seven months now so I'm still getting to grips with Manchester and finding out where things are and who people are. I spent 31 years at a university close to here in the other side of the Pennines where I was a lecturer, senior lecturer, professor, became head of department, became head of two departments.

0:05:20.760 - 0:05:21.600
KATIE: Oh, lucky you.

0:05:21.600 - 0:06:28.630
ALLAN: So, career-wise it was a natural step but I think in the context of today I've spent probably the last seven or eight years as head of department working with people with
disabilities, visible and invisible disabilities and also to some extent dealing with my own. So I have a few things going on in my life, mostly medical, so when I was 35 I had testicular cancer and when I was 40 I had a form of cancer called non-Hodgkin's lymphoma which was unrelated and that's left me with a few scars, physical scars but also its caused me to now have diabetes and I have a few leg problems because of radiotherapy that I had. So I'm kind of well aware of some forms of disability. I don't score terribly well on a dyslexia score but I've never had a formal diagnosis but I've
done things in head of department training where we had to kind of do scores and so I was a bit embarrassed.

0:06:29.270 - 0:06:43.120
KATIE: I've had very similar experiences with the AQ50 which is a screener for autism, and I come up with a score of like 38 or something but you know because I work in psychology it's a thing that we know about and I'm always a bit like hang on a minute that might explain some things.

0:06:43.120 - 0:06:53.630
ALLAN: Yeah and I remember when I was kind of a PhD student I really struggled with kind of writing and language and words would bounce around and so on and so forth but I've actually worked a way through that I think.

0:06:54.130,0:06:56.080
JACKIE: Mmm Tell us.

0:06:56.080 - 0:07:12.600
ALLAN: Well no I haven't got a magic step it's just I think with experience and actually not worrying about it I use the computer to highlight issues, I use the tech but I also spend time and I don't try and do things in a rush.

0:07:12.600 - 0:08:36.804
KATIE: No absolutely you should take the time you need to do things shouldn't you. I think that's the story with a lot of neurodivergent people whether diagnosed self-identified or you know neurodivergent curious is that we build in our own coping mechanisms and what supports one person might not support another person but a good employer will be one that allows people to play to their strengths by having those mechanisms in place so for a dyslexic person it might be you know being allowed more time to do a task or for me it might be doing stuff online or hybrid meetings for instance.

One of the things in the journey that I've been on because obviously, this is a new disability for me, relatively speaking, is that the notion of reasonable adjustments. So, the adjustments that would work really well for me might actually make someone else's life more difficult or less pleasant and fulfilling for instance because I don't feel this huge need to be constantly socializing for instance. Autistic people often, I don't want to speak for everyone, but often socialize in different ways. So, it's an interesting question in itself like how far can you go with reasonable adjustments?

Another example might be, you know, someone wearing a mask for COVID reasons or whatever it is, that's going to be difficult for people with hearing loss. So, it's doing a dance isn't it of who do we support and how and it's tricky.

 
0:08:36.804 - 0:09:28.364
ALLAN: I think that's the thing as head of department in my previous institution that I found the most difficult.

So, I was very open to reasonable adjustments but sometimes they were very resource intensive. When you're in a department that hasn't got any money it is a difficult one to balance that. But also, and I've noticed this myself sometimes as you said a reasonable adjustment for one person might not work for someone else and I had a very good example here the other day which I think is related to my own issue with words and we had an online meeting where some of us were in the room some were online and we had the ticker tape going across the bottom and I couldn't, I couldn't process the words and for some reason I couldn't hear the speech with that going and I couldn't turn it off because I was in a room with other people so it was..

0:09:28.364 - 0:09:29.485
KATIE: It was stymied really

0:09:29.485 - 0:09:37.639
ALLAN: It was an awkwardness. Now I appreciate there's some people in the room may have loved that and it may have helped them. So, getting the balance right I think is, is tricky sometimes for an employer.

0:09:37.639 - 0:10:29.400
KATIE: I've had really productive and supportive conversations with our head of department who also is my line manager and I think that all you can really do is compromise so you know some people want meetings to be online so you have them online this month in person next month and you know I don't think you can unless you've got everybody in an organization who has the same disability it's not actually possible to
accommodate everyone all of the time, much as I wish it was, I'm not trying to argue for not having accommodations but it has to be a feasible thing to do. I agree. Like in an ideal world we'd accommodate everybody in every way possible but I just don't think it is and I think not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is probably quite a pragmatic approach. There might be people listening to this who think who are horrified by what I'm saying but you know small changes can make big differences I think that's the thing.

0:10:29.400 - 0:11:37.562
JACKIE: Can I come back to you both on you use the term a good employer okay, and I was struck when you were saying that that we're you know we're talking about leadership and ensuring that there's reasonable adjustments and we of course we have the disability advisory support service which is a fantastic provision of the University of Manchester. But there's a need for pragmatism also always isn't there for the disabled person.

So I'm really curious about how we develop a culture and environment in which people can talk because for those of us who are willing and able to share our disability and thank you Allan for doing so very openly and for yourself Katie that is one thing, but we know we're undercounting the number of people at the University of Manchester who are disabled. We just know that from the data okay it's probably you know at least a 50 percent undercount according to if you compare it to national statistics and there are reasons for that that people don't want to share.

So what about the people who perhaps don't feel able to talk out?

What would your thoughts be around your own experience?

How can we support them with the staff networks or through good management and leadership?

0:11:37.562 - 0:14:42.673
KATIE: I think so my experience of diagnosis was a bit unusual because I'm close friends with a colleague. So initially colleague now friend who's an autism diagnostician so she was able to support me through that process, so I don't feel that I have any kind of internalized stigma. So I feel like I'm in a privileged position where I have a voice I should use it. Although then there's a bAllance of like how many things do you say yes to, when do you find the time to do all this stuff. But I think role modelling is really, really important so people who feel like they're able to coming and being open about it. And yeah kind of okay, this is going to be my, the thing that I prepared notes for. EDI feels like and disability in particular I think, feels like it's a nice to have and what I think it should be is it should be built into absolutely everything that we do. I know Jackie you said similar things about disability also seems to be forgotten about. I think some of the time it's too is harder perhaps because there's kind of physical adapt adaptations that we have to make in order to accommodate people but it shouldn't it shouldn't be that way because disabled people irrespective of the disability have got so much to contribute and I know if you if I were allowed to work in the way that suits me best I'd be firing out papers left right and centre.

So, there are advantages to accommodating in that way but I've often I've for a while now been thinking about the FBMH expectations of your research and your teaching
contribution then also the FBMH promotion criteria. EDI I don't think it's even mentioned in promotion and it's, it's an afterthought in the research and teaching expectations and the section that does mention EDI is buried in social responsibility and it mentions Athena Swan and the Race Equality Charter but there's nothing about disability in there.

So, I'm in this position at the moment whereas I get allocated 14 hours a year to be chair of the ND staff network. Last week I spent an entire day doing things related to that. This week I've got three hour-long sessions it's just totally unrealistic and but it's important right? I really want to do it. So, I'm damaging my own career prospects currently because I don't have time to write the research grants and I have to do the teaching obviously.

So, the research gets get pushed to one side and actually I'm autistic!

Research is what I love the best in the world but because I take this stuff so seriously that's, that's suffering and I think a helpful concrete thing to do would be to build EDI into the expectations of what it's like to be a Manchester person I think that would be really really helpful and you know promote people on the basis of the contributions they're making. Make time, find money from somewhere to give somebody a day a week rather than one hour a month to do these things so that would be I think I've kind of pre-empted
the end thing but you know I'm not sure whether people at your level are down in the details of those things.

0:14:42.673 - 0:15:55.830
JACKIE: Before Allan, before you respond can I just say something that I think is worth having actually on record. We do have a new vice chancellor coming to the University
of Manchester, Professor Duncan Ivison and we have in the EDI team had separate meetings with him before he's coming.

Now we know he's very very committed and you probably won't be surprised to hear me say that I was a person who talked about ensuring that disability is a centre stage as REC and Athena Swan because that's important but also that there's a recognition of the resource need in the way that you're talking about and a reflection of that in all of the criteria that you're talking about, promotion recruitment and so on so I just wanted to set that context out in terms of, I think we are going through a period of changes in university. Nancy Rothwell our current VC was on the previous episode in which she clearly is very committed as well but I think there's more to be done I think we recognize that. So I just wanted to set that context Allan before you dive in from the perspective of one of the faculties in the bigger university but thank you Katie I think that's such an important contribution

0:15:56.470 - 0:17:26.424
ALLAN: So let me start with generalities so I think for me it's all about culture and getting the culture right allows people to talk, to declare, we can have conversations about reasonable adjustments we can have conversations about expectations. I haven't been in Manchester long enough to know whether or not the culture is right here from this perspective. If I'm honest I think there's some things I would like to change there are some things that seem to work well you know the social responsibility agenda here seems, seems very strong but I think I agree with you that ED&I shouldn't be separate it should be a core thread throughout and I see that in terms of how roles are advertised,
in terms of how things are put on the agenda, in terms of technology even sometimes as we spoke earlier and there I think there's things that are a way to go and I you know I like trying to change culture and I've had some really, really rich conversations whilst I've been here from people who have been struggling, they've had medical problems or other problems at work and you know sitting down with a cup of coffee and talking it through and developing a solution is as productive as any policy or any statement you know, just getting that human contact yeah that human discussion going which is why this is so important.

0:17:26.424 - 0:17:45.210
KATIE: I was going to say the same thing so since being in touch with you Jackie and Kathy and the EDI directorate as well and that makes a massive difference.

So I don't know whether this is a me thing or an autistic thing but these complicated structures like I'm, I'm quite intrigued about what the difference is between your two job titles I don't, I find it all very confusing.

0:17:45.210 – 0:17:48.690
ALLAN: I don't know either

0:17:48.690 - 0:18:36.999
KATIE: I'm not alone phew, so yeah having a human face and the ear of somebody who can influence is massively important and hopefully to an extent the staff networks do that as well I mean the stuff that the disabled staff network have done they're absolutely
incredible power houses of human beings they're wonderful and hopefully we'll find the time and space to make the ND network more influential I guess that's probably not the right word but so I do think that in terms of cultural change it's like look at these amazing people who are doing these incredible things so I guess there's not template like the foundations are there but change is quite glacial in higher education isn't it.

0:18:36.999 - 0:18:52.804
ALLAN: Yeah it is, and Manchester is big and complex and I have to say I hadn't appreciated that quite to the extent that it is until I arrived here. But going into your point about time and resource I think that's an interesting one I think that's bigger than faculty
to think that one through.

0:18:52.804 - 0:18:53.304
KATIE: Yeah

0:18:53.304 - 0:19:13.594
ALLAN: You know I think I think Manchester needs to decide what it wants to see and put the resource to that appropriately and see people rewarded who step into that role and go forward and it's, it's it doesn't chime well with me to hear you say that you may be damaging your career through that so either we have

0:19:13.594,0:19:14.883
KATIE: Autistically blunt but it's true

0:19:14.883 - 0:19:36.507
ALLAN: I don't disagree, and I've been in a similar position in my previous career it wasn't in terms of ED&I it was in terms of public engagement. I was doing an awful lot of public engagement that wasn't recognized at all at the time but the agenda changed and so I can see I can see within with a new president I can see with a new wind that some of these things may well be looked at

0:19:36.507,0:19:38.285
KATIE: Yeah that would be amazing

 
0:19:38.285 - 0:20:01.452
ALLAN: And I think but I think we have to remember we are an organization that needs to achieve its core objectives in terms of research income in terms of its teaching and so on and so forth so it's a balancing act and I think that's for more than just a single faculty to deal with I think that's something that is needs to be crossed university-wide because we need the same focus in FBMH as we do in FSE, as we do in Humanities.

0:20:01.452 - 0:20:14.810
JACKIE: And you both talked about it being sort of a core central approach, a part of what we do not separate not an adjunct not an add-on not particular people's jobs but something that we all take into account as we do social responsibility

0:20:14.810 - 0:21:44.637
KATIE, Yeah so it should be like that in terms of it's an expectation on everybody not just interested parties so you know we're sitting here with our hidden disabilities, and you know we've got a motivation for getting involved in this stuff, but everybody should be aware of the issues. So, one good thing is that I'm working with DASS to develop training materials that they're off doing all the hard work I was just kind of consulting I suppose but um training materials around autism and neurodiversity. So that's going to be good because we'll have a resource where we can point people towards and say this is where you find out kind of the current understanding the cutting edge and things. So, stuff is changing but it's just I'm going to moan now, but it's exhausting the amount and I constantly, Matthew has the same issue he constantly has to say no but I, sorry he has to turn down requests for help as I do too.

But one of the points that you're making which I think is really important is that it needs to be consistent across faculties. So one of the issues that we're having raised and I think you're aware of some of these as well Jackie is so on the ND staff network people are raising talking about adjustments and some people have managed to have them some people haven't, it's very patchy and I think it's sort of the luck of the draw with who your line manager is at the moment so, and obviously that's you know the source of unhappiness for some people because they see somebody getting adjustments that would benefit them you know so um yeah across I agree that cross faculty is important

0:21:44.637 - 0:22:35.440
ALLAN: But I think line managers are key yes and I think heads of department are key
and I haven't yet got the sense of how embedded some of this is in individual line managers, but I think that's where the culture change comes from because if most of us are informed from our own personal experience that's the strongest driver. You can put on training courses but until you've had to deal with something as a line manager you will have a range of experiences you know I've got I've now got a library of things that if someone asks me x I know a potential solution is y and I potentially know where to go but that's a learned thing from me and we have to I think make sure that all of our line managers and all of our leaders are kind of on the same page. I don't yet get the sense of how well embedded that is the way you're looking at me Jackie suggests that...

0:22:35.440 - 0:23:23.190
JACKIE: Well yea, this is a non-visual environment so I'm nodding my head and that's partly why I've created this series to start the conversation at the level that we're having this conversation today but it has to cascade down and we have to bring line managers along with us and often it's just a case of because it's the I would argue that because it's possibly the least well discussed and talked about of the protected characteristics people don't know where to start to have the conversation. They simply do not know and it's a case I think of ensuring that people have the resources, feel safe in the environment that they are working in or studying in to have the conversation about what their needs are which of course they might not even know. As you said yourself we might we don't always know our needs do we until

0:23:23.190 - 0:23:35.670
KATIE: Yeah that was students quite and actually they don't come, you know they get a new diagnosis they don't necessarily have the vocabulary to know what to ask for. And so the more line managers understand them yeah yeah absolutely

0:23:35.670 - 0:24:11.430
JACKIE: So what did where does that leave us?

I mean we come back time and time again in meetings the EDI committee meetings at the university level in these sorts of conversations in conversations I have when I'm asked to go around and talk to faculty groups or school groups or departmental groups
and it often comes back to where do we start, and you know you've got some lived experience both of you. What where would be a good place to intervene you know we could create interventions that create more resources, what do you think?

What needs to happen around let's, let's take autism in particular or neurodivergence

0:24:11.430 - 0:25:14.450
KATIE: So one of the things that we want to do with the ND staff network is very much make it a safe space for people to have these conversations in it's massively important I think for people with whatever disability you know that that to not have to explain all of the time to have that safe space at the risk of repeating myself. But what I mean I'm doing another thing not a million miles away from this tomorrow and one of the things that I want to say there is that we're I want to ask the community where to start because I'm just me I've only been officially autistic for four years or something yeah so yeah what did what what all my amazing autistic friends want to change? I think that would be because I'm so I've done so many of this these type things and I don't want to be the self-appointed voice of the autistic so I would like other people to feel that they can speak too so yeah I think from my perspective what I can do is starting with the ND staff network and say what how can we serve you I guess

0:25:14.450 - 0:25:18.030
JACKIE: so important and do you mind sharing with us who you're doing that with tomorrow

0:25:18.030 - 0:25:23.150
KATIE: and that is with and so Kathy Bradley's organized it it's with Matthew my co-chair, Matthew Harrison and PJ Hemmaway is yes he's agreed to be our what's the word not patron

0:25:30.310 - 0:25:31.583
JACKIE: um sponsor, Senior Sponsor

0:25:31.583 - 0:25:44.586
KATIE: Yes which would be fantastic and also um I think he's very open about the fact that he has dyscalculia which is a different neurotype finally someone who's not just autistic so yeah I'm looking forward to doing

0:25:44.586 - 0:25:55.633
JACKIE: Wonderful Patrick PJ was on the first not Patrick, PJ was on the first episode of this series in which he talked very openly about that so it's wonderful that um Kathy has persuaded him to become the senior sponsor

0:25:55.633 - 0:26:19.260
KATIE: He jumped at the chance, yeah he said it's a real passion of his which is so this is exactly what I mean about role modeling right is like show people who've just acquired a new diagnosis successful people senior people you know I mean I I don't advocate
outing people for anything whatsoever like disclosure is incredibly personal but if more senior people do feel that they can talk about these things it can only be good um so

0:26:19.260 - 0:26:21.165
ALLAN: And that helps change the culture

0:26:21.165 - 0:26:23.224
KATIE: well yeah yes yeah

0:26:23.224 - 0:27:03.312
JACKIE: yeah absolutely and you've done that today you know you shared very openly and it was very much a case of me saying to you before you came on share what you're able and willing to share and you know you've, you've role modeled as Katie said you've shown that senior leaders can also have disability whether or not you use any of the services we have but you've given us a very open uh rendition of your own personal
journey which I would say um I'd agree with you um that gives us more motivation and a unique personal insight into what it's like because you know disability is the one thing that perhaps all of us at some point in our lives might experience.

0:27:03.312 - 0:27:17.432
KATIE: yeah absolutely almost inevitably everybody yeah yeah. And also just as an aside you'd be very welcome to join the ND staff network if you're dyslexic or curious
but don't feel compelled to.

0:27:17.432 - 0:27:20.134
ALLAN: Send me an email after that it'll be interesting to come along

0:27:20.134 - 0:27:33.445
KATIE: there are nice chats on there actually. I mean we we Matthew and I really push for time so we haven't put as much into it as we could have done but we're trying to get there and yeah it's a nice place where you can just ask questions, very democratized

0:27:33.445 - 0:27:56.457
ALLAN: What I'm thinking while I'm sitting here is and I'm maybe rushing to the end now is um one thing I've tried to begin in the faculty which I think has happened before but we haven't had many since I've been here is our faculty forum and uh I've seen this work in my previous institution and just getting people together to talk about a topic.

Now we had one recently on the topic of AI which is very interesting.

0:27:56.457 - 0:27:58.029
KATIE: Oh I think I watched some of that

0:27:58.029 - 0:28:18.935
ALLAN: and I learned a lot and I wasn't aware of all the things that it could or couldn't do but I'm just wondering if this is a topic for a future faculty forum if people will be willing you know just to share and just to open up the discussion and and just it would signal to the faculty yeah that we're interested and that we're we want to listen and that we will do what we can to try and help

0:28:18.935 - 0:28:26.035
KATIE: That would be wonderful for disability broadly I think would help yeah yeah yeah that would be a very good idea

0:28:26.035 - 0:29:06.766
JACKIE: That's great, that might come to your end but I was thinking before we get to the end question because I am going to ask each of you to ask the other question at the end of this conversation um we've talked a lot about the the challenges, the barriers, the difficulties, the exhaustion that comes up time and time again um but what is it you used a phrase I didn't write it down okay to be used a phrase about you know, research is your passion and if you could you'd be doing that all the time producing papers, turning them out. but then you've given a lot of your time to this because this is something you
care about as well um what are the what's the upside if you like well let's talk about the
strength as well

0:29:06.766 - 0:31:21.667
KATIE: To other, other talks that I've done um there are I mean I don't want to diminish the challenges that some people have but um autistic people have this capacity and again I'm talking in generalizations here that that hyper-focused state that I think people know about it's characteristic of ADHD as well it's just amazing. So I can sit down and be interested in something and it's probably not very healthy but I can sit down and and focus for five hours and not go to the loo not eat anything like that because I am so interested and that can make me very happy very productive so obviously I thrived when I was a postdoc because that's like all I was doing it was amazing um so that's sort of related to the concept of autistic joy and so if I find the right kind of pine cone that'll be me for the day oh it's so beautiful or like a nice ladybird or a particular type of relief or something like I get very excited about um seeing mathematical patterns in nature so anything a bit fractal just sends me off on one. Um so that is and I always say so I I've done talks specifically about autistic strengths before and I always say like the challenges are awful there are some days where it links with anxiety. Some days where I can't leave the house without being sick first I have to get that out the way and then I can go but then I would not swap the autistic joy aspect of things I wouldn't let anyone take that away if it meant I didn't have the anxiety too. It's really, we also communicate differently and when autistic people get together I don't know if you've ever seen a group of us talking to each other but like our body language is different look at me waving my arms around we kind of jump topics when we're speaking um so I love conversations with autistic people because they communicate the same way as me. So being so one of the joys is being in your community and then special interests as well, so ask any autistic person about their special interests they'll probably have more than one um but yeah we can get very excited talking about these kind of things so there are lots and lots and lots of strengths and actually you know the reception since I've started doing all of this stuff it sounds like the Katie show it's not supposed to, but the reception you get from like situations like this or you know my line manager, that's a joyful thing in itself actually because you're feeling right okay I am doing some good here hopefully.

0:31:21.667 - 0:31:33.233
JACKIE: So, let's start to wrap up then I don't know who wants to start first normally, um in fact Katie I'm going to ask you to ask Allan the first question. So we end up these conversations with a list of just one things

0:31:33.233 - 0:31:39.810
KATIE: So, what would be your main take home then from having talked to a unicorn. That's what they say for autistic people

0:31:39.810 - 0:32:17.861
ALLAN: Well, I think what's resonated with me today is that the fact that we need to continue the conversation and we need to try and change the culture and I think it's what I was saying earlier uh about across the faculty which is the only bit that I have responsibility for. I think we can begin that conversation by shining a light on this and having a bespoke faculty forum about disability which can weed in some of the things that we've talked about. Quite how we do that I'm going to ask for some help there but I will go back to the office and I will raise it with, with my colleague who helps with that and I think that would help, help start to change the course

0:32:17.861 - 0:32:26.438
JACKIE: Brilliant, well I think you will have the backing of your EDI colleagues in the faculty as well because I know they're very very keen to do more in this space

0:32:26.438 - 0:32:27.880
KATIE: EDI people have they've been absolutely brilliant, yeah.

0:32:28.880 - 0:32:33.040
JACKIE: So, Allan your turn to ask Katie.

0:32:33.040 - 0:32:36.066
ALLAN: So, Katie what one thing would make a difference to your lived experience at the University of Manchester

0:32:36.066 - 0:33:38.337
KATIE: See the thing is there's a hundred million different things. um and I'm aware I've only got kind of the one opportunity really to say this out loud but I think so broadly it's the culture change but tangibly building EDI into I know you said it has to be consistent across faculties and it's bigger than faculties but into those expectations and into the promotion criteria. It's not just disability that these things are ableist around, oh sorry it's not discriminatory that's the technical term but exclusionary I guess so that a lot of the research expectations are like travel to international conferences and it's like well, I've got three children under five so I'm not really going to be doing that so having a review of all of these expectations with an EDI hat on but you know with, with the focus on disability. I think that would be I think that's really important and then that's like the catalyst isn't it because then people start getting promoted and then you've got your role models and could have a kind of a positive snowball effect.

0:33:38.337 - 0:33:52.860
JACKIE: Wonderful, well I just want to thank both of you very much. I've learned something today it's been such a brilliant conversation to listen to. I hope the listeners are also going to enjoy it when, when it comes out and um yeah it just remains for me to say thank you did you have any final parting words?

0:33:52.860 - 0:34:02.246
KATIE: I don't think so, it's just lovely to meet you and really refreshing to hear you say you know culture change is important I think. That's gives me optimism.

0:34:02.246 - 0:34:04.525
ALLAN: It's lovely to have this conversation thanks for the opportunity

0:34:04.525 - 0:34:05.600
JACKIE: Likewise thank you both very much