Let's Talk Disability

Let’s Talk Disability. Thinking Intersectionally About the Future.
Presented by: Professor Jackie Carter
Guest: Dr Julian Skyrme
Guest: Hannah Murphy – Future Leaders Graduate.

Hello, my name's Jackie Carter I’m the EDI Disability Academic Lead at the University of Manchester and I've set up a series of in-conversation pieces called Let's Talk Disability. The reason for this is that I want people who have a disability and who work and study at the University of Manchester to have opportunity to share what their lived experience, their everyday experience is with somebody in a position of influence, a senior leader at the University. So each episode will feature two guests and each of those guests will have a conversation about what it means to have a disability at the University of Manchester and at the end of the conversation each will commit to one action, we're calling them 'One Things', where they will take away something from the conversation that they've had and do something with it. I hope you enjoy listening and we'll make, of course, the transcript available for everybody. Thank you.

So hello, welcome to both of you. I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself to the audience listening in a minute.

I'm Jackie Carter, I'm the host of these conversations and I'm the EDI Academic Lead for the University of Manchester. So, today's conversation is all about having conversations across the University with people at various levels in different roles and Hannah, I'm going to start by asking you please to introduce yourself and then Julian, I'll go to you.

HANNAH: Yeah, of course. So first I'd like to say thank you to Jackie and to Julian for having this conversation with me today. Hi, my name is Hannah, I am on the Future Leaders graduate scheme. I'm in my second year placement of Business Change Coordinator within PS Portfolios in the Strategic Change Office and my first year placement was in Student Marketing Recruitment within the Faculty of Humanities.

JACKIE: Brilliant, thanks Hannah. And Julian, who are you?

JULIAN: Just to say, well hi Jackie. So, thanks Jackie for asking me to come on here. I've been really looking forward to this all week and Hannah, it's been great to meet you in advance of doing today's podcast. Yeah, so I'm Julian Skyrme, I’m the Director of Social Responsibility and Civic Engagement at the University. Just after I started working here. I was for many years heading up things like student recruitment and admissions and widening participation, but I've been doing the job I've done now for just over 10 years

JACKIE: Brilliant, thank you Julian. That's when we first met, when you were in the widening participation role. I remember having that conversation with you a long time ago. Hannah, we really appreciate you coming along today. These conversations are really about you sharing as much as you want to share about your disability, self-described by yourself, and also for Julian to get the opportunity to listen from his perspective.

And it's to think about the challenges that disabled staff and students at the University of Manchester face, but also to focus a light on the strengths that disabled people bring. So, I know this is going to be a conversation between yourself and Julian and I might interrupt at certain points when you chime with something that I'm interested in, but I'm going to hand over to you if that's okay. I don't know who's going to start.

JULIAN: Yeah, so I'd start if that’s okay then, and thanks Jackie for that. So, we wanted this to be a conversation for people because I think Hannah's story is an amazing story actually. She's an amazing woman who I’m really proud to say is a colleague of mine, just learning about some of the things that she's done already in her career and what she might offer in the future. I think you'll be really fascinated by the conversation today. What we wanted to do is just go through some of the salient points really from Hannah's biography and I think they draw out issues. I think lots of staff and students across the university will relate to, and particularly because Hannah’s been a student until quite recently as well can I think what she's going to say will be really interesting to our students as well as our staff Jackie. So, I wanted to start off just Hannah, just if you could tell us a little bit about why you're on this podcast then in terms of disability, what does that mean to you in terms of your experiences of being disabled?

HANNAH: So, yeah, the first reason why I wanted to come on this podcast is I've listened to all of them and I love everyone's, all the different stories I've heard and they really resonated with myself as someone who has suffered, who suffers with chronic lower back pain and I've got two different back conditions. So first of all, I have hypermobility and I also have a diastematomyelia, which is quite hard to pronounce, which is a spinal deformity and both of those cause chronic lower back pain and they affect women more than men, both conditions and on top of that I've also got chronic anemia, which I've been undergoing quite a bit of treatment for, still really iron deficient and I also have long term mental health conditions so I've suffered with anxiety and depression and the reason why I wanted to come on today's podcast is to kind of discuss and discuss my experiences with chronic pain, how I've self-managed and the kind of resilience it's taken me to keep on top of that so that I can enjoy my life.

JULIAN: I think there's so much in there, Hannah. Would you be able to perhaps explain to people all of these things you didn’t just discover overnight, wake up and what you've just said, there’s quite a lot in there. So just to unpack that, could you talk a little bit about the chronology and sequence of how you've discovered some of, particularly starting with the back pain and then we'll come on to some other things perhaps after that?

HANNAH: Yeah, of course. So, I have had, I've experienced back pain, lower back pain for six years now. doing my undergraduate degree and I remember being really struggling to walk and I was experiencing sciatica as well and I'd gone to the GP a fair few times to get it checked out because I knew something wasn't right and I just kept getting prescribed painkillers and it took until my fourth try going to the GP that they actually referred me for an MRI. I went for an MRI which is where they discovered the spinal deformity and also a disc bulge and then I was supposed to have a referral to Salford Neurology Department but then it was Covid. So, then that took two years and then I didn't end up getting my referral. I'd gone back to the doctors again, I spoke to some physiotherapists and they gave me some exercises and some advice on what to do and then last December when I first started working at the university on my graduate scheme, I had a really bad flare up, really painful, it hurt for me to even get out of bed and to walk down the stairs. So, I went back to my GP, and I got a referral to the musculoskeletal team, and they uncovered that I've got hypermobility. So five years it took me to get a proper diagnosis and now understanding that the hypermobility and the spinal deformity both impact the way my nerves interact with each other in my lower back and that's why when I do have back pain it doesn't just feel like a bit of soreness, I can feel it in my actual nerves. So, it took me six years, it was quite a frustrating experience. A lot of ups and a lot of downs and a lot of injuries I experienced because I was told to keep on exercising. The exercise I was doing wasn't right for my body and I kept injuring myself. I also became quite intolerant to painkillers which to me was quite scary. I was taking quite a lot of painkillers all the time trying different massage oils on my back, trying everything and nothing really helped. So it was a very frustrating period of my life, especially being a student and you've got all your exams, all your assignments, your dissertations to write, really frustrating and that triggered my anxiety because when I would wake, like for example I woke up in the middle of the night and I can't feel my legs and I've got them tingling sensations running down it because of the sciatica feelings, my anxiety would really trigger because I'd be thinking the worst as you would do, you overthink and I'd be thinking oh god is this like the end of me walking or you know just that would that triggered my anxiety quite a lot and then having those two kind of feeding to each other that when my back is sore I feel anxious. When my back is sore I also can't really go out for a walk or go and exercise that makes me feel depressed because I feel quite isolated especially when now if I work from home for example because when my back's sore I don't want to be around people, I don't feel comfortable being around people when I'm in pain and that is quite self-isolating in itself. So, the two kind of tie into each other but I've always, I’ve had, I've experienced mental and I didn't realise what it because it wasn't spoken about then. I'm so glad there's more conversations around it now that especially for young people and the climate that we live in and I didn't understand what depression was until I went and saw my GP and now it's quite clear to me the cycle of the chronic pain and the mental health issues I have and then on top of that I got diagnosed with chronic anemia around two years ago so that doesn't help with the feelings of pain and fatigue and also my overall mood in general. I'm quite low mood, my energy levels are quite low, and I’ve undergone different treatments for it. I've still got chronic anemia but yeah, it's been quite frustrating, but I feel like understanding how the three interact helped me kind of address when I'm not feeling too great.

JULIAN: There's so much in there, thanks so much Hannah for sharing that. Gosh, you're a very resilient person I can tell as well but it must some of these periods you've described must have been really challenging for you and I just wonder whether for people who are listening in terms of the type of support you were able to get when you were a student. You were at Liverpool and then you did a masters with us I understand didn't you and what was that like when you were a student compared to being a professional at the University of Manchester the type of support you've been able to access?

HANNAH: Yeah of course so when I actually formally got diagnosed, I was actually in the first semester of my masters so my time at Liverpool I never accessed support because I didn't need it then. So when I came to Manchester and I got the diagnosis I reached out to DASS and I had a full at home assessment it was during Covid as well when I had to do my masters online so I got a full assessment they provided me with my own ergonomic chair and IT services actually, I had a really old MacBook it that I was still using when I was doing my masters and somehow someone from IT was able to download software that meant I could talk to my talk into word and do my essays that way so I'm not sat down all the time doing my work. I also received mitigating circumstances for all my coursework exams which really allowed me to take longer breaks and not feel too stressed to be sat there getting all of my work done doing all my research for my exams and I could take that time to look after myself whilst getting all my coursework done and then going from so I had a bit of a gap between finishing my masters and coming to the university as a member of staff so I worked in the civil service for around two years. So then going from being a member, being a student at the university to then starting my graduate scheme here within my first couple of weeks I got a DASS assessment with my DASS supervisor who was incredible. They ordered me my own ergonomic chair we had things put in place so my line manager was aware of my conditions and the kind of requirements that I need such as working from home when I need to, standing up having a stand-up desk available when I need to use it and I've had a really positive experience from both being a student and being a member of staff with the support that's been available for my chronic pain and I've never for the other two conditions that I have I've never seeked help with from DASS it's kind of stuff that I act on externally and one thing that I'd also like to say is the support from my line managers as well has been absolutely amazing. So my first year line manager ordered me my own adjustable desk to have in the office so I didn't have to go and work on my own in a separate room I could work in the same room as my colleagues and then my new line manager for my second year placement, we're undergoing a refurbishment on the bottom floor in John Owens and they've ensured that I have a space in our temporary room with my chair always available for me to go and work and so just little things like that for me have gone a really long way as well as the support from DASS so yeah I've had a great I've had so much support and it's amazing and it makes me feel more valued as a member of staff as well and I also feel like because there's such I've experienced such an inclusive environment I feel like I can talk about my conditions and I can be honest with my managers and I can say I might need to work from home today I'm not feeling too great I need to listen to my body and focus on that first.

JULIAN: It's really encouraging Hannah to hear you talk about the different support that you've been able to get and I think if somebody if we ago we might be having a very different type of conversation with somebody who had similar experiences to you but we're all unique and I think Jackie, you know, you you're an expert in all of this but what I hear is so many different factors going on you've got what you might see as some more visible forms of disability if you're struggling with your back people might notice that you also talked about mental health and sometimes back pain you can't see or you might try and hide it and put a brave face on that day and I think those hidden forms of disabilities I know you talk a lot about that Jackie is so just just listening to this it strikes me because I'm a why I'm on here is to to learn and I'm learning so much from you today Hannah and I think the thing I'm really thinking about is how do we get more of those conversations Jackie, you know with between members of staff and their line managers about this because that relationship to me seems to be really important as leaders we need to self-model this don't we and to create the kind of inclusive culture, the safe spaces in which conversation psychologically safe spaces that conversations can happen. But I mean Jackie you saw a lot of this,

JACKIE: I was going to jump in I was going to so I'm no expert I mean we can be expert on our own disabilities but we can never be expert on other people's because that's the whole point of having the lived experience you know, what affects you with your condition will be different to what affects a different person with the same condition so we have to learn to listen which is what Julian's saying. I was really struck first of all to for the record DASS, when we talk about DASS it's a disability advisory support service which we have at the University of Manchester which supports both staff and students to get the adjustments they need for their disability or chronic illness chronic chronic pain in your case Hannah and to ensure that we're you know being disability inclusive and giving people what they need to perform to the best of their ability and we have amazing disabled people at the University of Manchester who we're hearing about on some of these episodes but one of the things that was curious about when you were talking and Julian's touched on this as well is about at what stage did you feel comfortable and confident in sharing with your line managers because we hear a lot that people don't for whatever reason you know it might be fear of being discriminated against it might be they haven't exposed it to their colleagues so they don't want to share it more openly but at what stage did you feel able to share that you had needs that needed to be catered for in your role both as a student because you talked about mitigating circumstances and as a member of staff.

HANNAH: So as a student it was as soon as I got diagnosed because I needed, I knew I needed support, I knew I wasn't going to be able to finish all of my work on the deadlines as well as keep up with everything. I knew that I needed to take regular breaks and that I can't work at the same pace as other students so as soon as I got my diagnosis and the evidence I put in I put in an application to have a meeting with DASS and they were super proactive on it and then when I got the job at the University when I was applying for the Future Leaders graduate scheme scheme there was a kind of like guarantee that if you have got a disability we will prioritise your application

JULIAN: yes, two ticks

JACKIE: so that's changed now, that’s what it used to be called. It is the disability confident scheme.

HANNAH: that's it yeah so when I when I saw that I was like wow even at the start of even applying for the job I can already see it's an inclusive employer so that made me feel really confident and comfortable with sharing my conditions with the the people who lead the graduate scheme and also my line managers so when I joined the scheme I actually met my manager a few months in advance and I disclosed it to him then just so that he was prepared for when I came and also just to be honest and transparent about it because I didn't want to not tell him and then be asking to work from home and then and it be kind of lost and maybe the lack of trust might have been there whereas being able to disclose and feel comfortable that I could it built up a lot more trust I think and he was then able to support me throughout my first year and the same goes with my new line manager I felt really comfortable to tell to tell them as soon as I met them so yeah it's a number of things and as well when I've joined the university I have a really I'm really interested in EDI and when I looked at all the different networks and saw the variety different networks that there are it reaffirmed to me that it is an inclusive employer and that made me feel more comfortable to discuss with my fellow future leader graduates who are all on my cohort my conditions because my back pain has also meant that I've missed out on activities with them and that also makes me feel isolated but the fact that I even feel comfortable to say guys like I'm not going to be able to make it to this session today my back's playing up because someone catch me up everyone has been so supportive so I'm quite lucky and fortunate but this is how it should be everywhere for everyone

JACKIE: yeah I would say we're lucky and fortunate to have you though because you know we need more people modelling that it's not just leaders Julian is that it's people who are living with this day in day out and being able to feel comfortable and safe to be able to share with colleagues because that's how we change the culture

JULIAN: yeah I couldn't agree more and I think they don't underestimate the positive impact you're having on others Hannah, just obviously coming on a podcast like this to speak about things so so frankly but also when you're having smaller conversations with people in your team. I think it does encourage everyone to come forward this is the interesting thing about disability compared to perhaps race or sex for example because disability isn't just a fixed category. I'm getting older have some disabilities as I get older maybe my hearing won't be quite as good or your sight obviously on basic things like this can happen but obviously for women it's menopause, there's all sorts of different things that can be conditions rather than disabilities and I think even the language we use sometimes isn't always helpful to say you either do or don't have something because I think it varies at different times of your life people go through different episodes with their mood as well so I think all of this these conversations just making them more normalized I know that's what we're trying to do today the more we can all talk about this I think line managers definitely have to it's their responsibility I think to model this as far as possible but you'll also have lots of line managers who don't have disabilities and so you having those conversations I think has a positive effect upwards in the organization as well so don't underestimate the value of what you're doing I think it's really profound actually.

HANNAH: thank you and I think I'm just on what you just said then one thing that I found again just really inclusive is that the university and my line managers and also the support from DASS they recognise my conditions. It's not classified as a disability under the current legislation but that doesn't prevent me from gaining access to support from my employer which I think is a real shame that it's not because the conditions that I have can lead to disability in the future if I don't self-manage and I don't look after them after myself and it was quite eye-opening to me that you know I can access all this support even though I'm not actually classified as disabled I've just I have impairments

JACKIE: yeah I think that is such an important point I'm so glad you brought that up and in the way that you have because you're absolutely right the disability advisory support service is there to support people's needs to enable them to do their job or to complete their studies okay and whilst you might not fit into a box that is labelled as something that is then super labelled as disability they are still there to support you and it's the same with ADHD. People who self-identify as having ADHD can still get support from the the DASS service so you know we need to the language sometimes isn't inclusive which is what we're saying okay and that creates difficulty and then when you start drilling down into the data and seeing what is and isn't measured and how people self-identify and you've used the term disclose we prefer the term share but how people do or don't share their data you know it really affects actually the resource that we can put in to supporting people and if we're undercounting and we know we're undercounting at the University of Manchester in terms of people people self-declaring that they have a disability that has an impact in terms of the level of support we can give so you know it's sort of circular we need more people actually Hannah to be doing what you're doing and feel confident and as you go through your scheme and become a future leader you know you become the role model for others to be able to do that as well so As Julien said don't underestimate the power and influence that you have by sharing your story I wanted elsewhere

JULIAN: I agree I agree thanks Jackie I think one of the things I was interested to pick up on if I may Hannah also you talked about the chronic pain and your condition you also mentioned about the mental toil that that's taken on you as well I think it's really brave to speak about this you said actually something quite interesting. I was surprised when you said it you said that when you're younger when compared to me you're not a very old person so you're still you’re somebody I class as a young professional in the university you’re on graduate scheme etc. so you're relatively young person at the beginning of your career but you still said that even in your lifetime things have changed you feel more confident now speaking about your mental health and I was just comparing it to Jackie and myself who've been working here for a longer period than you have how much we've seen Jackie you know in our lifetimes, it's unbelievable the difference but I was really fascinated by you saying that even in the past tell us more about that

HANNAH: so, my mental health, yeah so

JULIAN: what's changed you know in terms of perception and your willingness and ability to talk about that some of that might be an age thing some of it might be you maybe were hinting at society’s changing I as well think

HANNAH: so I definitely think it was an age thing because I when I reflect back on it I do quite a lot of reflection and I like to kind of monitor my growth as a human being so when I kind of reflect back on it and I look back to when I was those were the years where I was quite depressed I don't remember a lot of those years to be honest I don't remember a lot of Uni because depression can actually make you blackout periods of your life when you are depressed so when I was, I had a bad moment at university which made me go and seek professional help so I yeah and following on from that I was then taking medication and just kind of relying on the medication to make me feel better and it never did and I just kind of got myself into a rut of not knowing what to do and not knowing how to help myself and so I started to exercise I started going out for walks I started to go to the gym and it's I can't believe that how much that has helped helped me I also think as well when I was doing my masters I absolutely loved it I was passionate about what I was studying and so I did my masters in international development that really helped me kind of feel a bit more resilient because I was passionate about what I was doing day-to -day and what I was researching what I was writing my essays about I didn't really I don't remember during my masters having much issues with my mental health then and then it's kind of on and off because you don't know when you're going to have a good day or a bad day basically but from exercising and being proactive on when I've got low mood and when I feel anxious has really gone a long way for me and when I compare myself to who I'm so proud of where I've come from so yeah so when I look back on when I experienced anxiety and depression and the older I'm getting the more reflective and the more I want to be proactive and resilient on looking after myself for the long term because you know the three conditions that I've mentioned they're all a cycle into one another so when my back's sore I don't want to exercise and that's when I feel isolated and depressed or anxious. When I feel anxious I don't want to move my body so I'll have back pain so having those two experiences have made me become really resilient and you know some days I might not want to get up and go for a walk but then I have to think about the bigger picture and my long-term health in it because I don't want my back to get worse I want to look after my mental health I want to come to work and you know give my best even though we're all going to have bad days that's completely normal and yeah the lessons I've learned really is to give yourself a break don't be too hard on yourself because I was really hard on myself when I wasn't feeling great really so for me it's all about being kind to yourself it really does allow you to take agency and ownership of how you're feeling because and then you can act on it and you can listen to your body listen to your mind and discover what you need right there in that moment whether that's taking the afternoon off work to look after yourself or to go for a walk and put a podcast on or you know to go and do a Pilates class after work or during your lunch break it could be anything anything that makes you feel good goes a long way for your mental health is what I've learned. So, for me that is doing Pilates and putting a podcast on when I go for a walk that's my time out from life work what’s going on in my head it's where I just zone out and I just reground myself

JULIAN: How did you get that understanding and was there a particular support is it some advice from somebody was it speaking to somebody else I'm always interested because it sounds like you've been through a process of enormous growth and self-awareness was there something you you can look back now and say it was this conversation or it was that practitioner or is this friend or it was this film or podcast I listened to a book I read what was it do you think

HANNAH: so I think the key, the main person that kind of influenced me with this is my mum and she's a nurse n A&E and she's also the mental health and like consultant on the ward and she deals with people, she cares for people with mental health every single day at work and for me who suffers with anxiety depression she'll tell me to go out for a walk go and exercise go and do something pick up a book, stop watching the tele and so listening to my mum who's you know a professional and she she cares for people on a day-to-day basis really and I live with her as well so she she could tell me what to do she was probably the the main person that helped me kind of get into that and to realise that for me I also I also used to follow quite a lot of different self-care Instagram pages which kind of which did help because they give you some tips on like reflection and kind of goal setting as well I feel like goal setting is really important to add to this conversation as well. Your goals all you to do could be something as simple as you know get some get some sunlight today especially in winter as it's getting the days are getting shorter and a lot of research into what I do now I've been quite proactive in like looking online like what is best to do when you're feeling anxious what is best to do when you're feeling depressed what is best to do when I've got lower back pain and and as well on the kind of discovery to find out what works best for me. When I did have my musculoskeletal referral I was told to do well I was advised to take up Pilates and I've been doing Pilates for around eight months now and it's completely transformed the way I have my kind of mind and muscle and body connection like I don't I don't just move I kind of it's a it's really grounded me and be more mindful about what I do and and I'm quite privileged to be able to do Pilates because it's not it's not cheap it's quite expensive and and being in the position that I am on the graduate scheme and I can afford that now whereas I could never afford to do something like that at University not many people can and so I was really happy to actually see that Be Active have introduced the Mobilates

JACKIE: yes

HANNAH: and yeah, I saw it on I was looking to book a Pilates class, and I saw it I was like oh I'm made up that they’ve introduced something like that for for all staff to be included in it

JACKIE: yeah, yeah that's a shout out to the yeah disabled staff network.

JACKIE: Can I just comment on something you've said so these conversations are as much about strengths as challenges as I said at the beginning and you're painting a picture for Julian and myself and the listeners of you know just how self-directed you've been and and all that self-awareness you've worked really really hard to put in place strategies and habits you know some of what you're talking about the daily habits aren't they getting out and getting sunshine. What advice would you give other people maybe listening to this? You know you've talked about being isolated and being in a place of not really knowing what to do. If somebody's listening and they’re dealing with their own challenges as a result of being disabled or having chronic ill health, what would you, one tip almost, what would you say has really helped that it might be worth them thinking about

HANNAH: so one one tip that I would give that I kind of use well I use pretty much every day is when I when I when I'm feeling fatigued because I'm anemic and when my back is sore because of my conditions and I don't want to do much and I don't really want to go out into the world and socialise and I don't want to exercise try and think about the bigger picture and where you want to be later in life and think about each day as it comes and how this is going to lead to the to the bigger thing in that you know the life you want to live lead yourself and for me I get motivated by the fact that I don't want my chronic lower back pain to prevent me from doing anything that I want to do yeah I want to live a fruitful life and I want to go out and enjoy myself and you know be a part of of being a young person and it's one thing I should really mention is it's quite I find it quite difficult as being the only person in my kind of social circle my suffers with chronic lower back pain and it kind of feels a bit singled out sometimes but the one of the advice I would give you is to kind of think about the big picture and the life you want to live and focus on that and just focus on what you need right then in that moment and listen to your body and your mind and it's it's something I do every day and it's it really helped me

JACKIE: thank you Hannah, that’s such wise counsel isn't it yeah

JULIAN: Can I ask a related question please Jackie?

JACKIE: yeah, please do

JULIAN: Because I think that's really good advice for people generally and thanks for sharing that. What about in a work context Hannah if there was people listening to this who either hadn't disclosed some physical condition or disability or were feeling depressed or anxious and not sure about what to do they hadn't done all the things that you've done and they feel it's affecting them in work I wonder if there's any advice you might give to people because I'm sure there are lots of people like this around the university as we speak

HANNAH: definitely so my advice would be to someone who’s potentially not that comfortable discussing it with a line manager first would reach out to one of the EDI networks. So I'm a member of the women at Manchester committee team and you know the people who are on these EDI networks care about you so my advice would be if you don't feel too comfortable speaking to your line manager reach out to you know either the disability network or any of the other networks that might apply to you know there's a neurodivergent network and reach out to them for first initial support see what they can direct you to different policies as well that the university has in place and it's also just making friends who share similar experiences to you which can make you then which can help you then feel more confident to raise it with your line manager and you know contact and contact DASS yeah that's ..

JACKIE: Thank you and you’re so right being accompanied and surrounded by people who get it. Okay they might not understand fully what you're going through but they certainly have lived experience of their own condition it's very um you you used a term previously about having agency, it gives you agency if you can talk to people who really understand um it can be very empowering and people then find the networks that will not only support them but open doors to other support mechanisms that it's sometimes quite solitary to do that on your own and you've clearly navigated the system and been very determined and persevered to get the support because you're very self-directed but not everybody has the strength or capacity to do that and if you're new to an organization and you know you're part of a structured program so you've you've got allies and um colleagues, peers who are around you but not everybody feels like that the university it's a big place, it's a big employer, so you're absolutely right to say reach out to the EDI different networks and before we finish I know you want us to talk about intersectionality as well so maybe that will be a nice way to sort of wrap up some of what we've been talking about before I ask each of you to ask the other your final question

JULIAN: Yeah so I was really interested Hannah in uh just learning more about you you talked about being working class as well and it's something that we I think because it's um in the legal sense it's not a protected characteristic in the same way I know there was a discussion at one point whether it should be and it never was, arguably the type of society we live in couldn't function if that was in the in the way it does at the moment if it was a protected characteristic perhaps so there's different debates about this and I think we end up then perhaps following a more legalistic route in university and following the protected characteristics, the legal ones and we don't talk enough in my view, I'm somebody who proudly talks about being working class myself my dad is a lorry driver and a forklift truck driver I'm the only person in my own family to go to university let alone have a PhD and things so I'm the unusual one and I think it's an identity now I'm middle class in my profession my children certainly are but it's something that stays with you forever I think in terms of your identity and it really struck me talking to you and learning about your biography Hannah how important that is to you and how when we have these conversations today Jackie you know about disability you know we're talking of as as men and as women, as people who have different socioeconomic groups the three of us are white for example we don't come in neat packages and what does that mean in terms of your experience in the university being from a working class background with everything else you've talked about as well do you think that's important?

HANNAH: A hundred percent I think when you look at the university and where it is it's in Manchester and Manchester predominantly is a working class city where I'm from is working class and I think it's not something that is ever ever spoken about your social class because it's not a protected characteristic but it's something that interplays in everything and it's something that the older I get the more I recognize about myself so you know not only am I a young woman who experiences a variety of different conditions and impairments but I'm also working class so these different characteristics all intersect and create disadvantages and inequality within society but then I also think it's important when we talk about intersectionality to realise your own privilege as well. So I'm privileged as a white woman compared to other women and I think these kind of conversations about intersection intersecting characteristics I think they really need to be spoken a lot more about because then we can understand how everyone is different and it's not a one-size-fits-all EDI approach or social responsibility approach or you know University of we're recognizing each individual person at the university is different and has different experiences and that we can't just cater for all people and I think it's quite I think it's quite a not only is it transformative and progressive but I think there's a beauty in recognizing everyone is different and I'm really hoping we get to that place one day where we don't just have everyone siloed into you know their gender, their race, their religion you know their disability it's it is more fluid than that and we can recognize each other's different experiences

JULIAN: Thank you I think it's such a good argument for we often say there’s two sides to the sort of EDI agenda. There's that bit about it's the right thing to do of course and I think we're all sat here because we believe that recognizing people's differences is just from a justice perspective it's it's fair it's it embodies equality but there's also this argument around high performing institutions are ones that are able to manage this diversity. The best organizations in the world bring talent in, they nurture they support it from all walks of life why would we not want somebody amazing like you Hannah working for our university, thriving here that as well as being the right thing to do it makes us a better university to have somebody like you working for us so I think your example there understanding those differences, those intersectionality’s that's just part of we need to make this more our core business. Just that diversity being a strength we know this from all other sectors of society really well there's lots of evidence for this I think in universities we sometimes are a bit lazy about that we sometimes think of diversity as some something like a problem to deal with and to solve rather than a strength and to celebrate

JACKIE: yeah which is why we try to make these conversations not just about challenges but about strengths and you mentioned the inequality word okay that was one of the things that we took away from the conference Julian and I were at the world academic summit last week and Vice Chancellor and President, Duncan Ivison was talking about inequality being you know one of the most century for universities and the role they play so it's been an absolute I feel very privileged actually to have listened to your story today Hannah so on behalf of myself and Julian I want to say thank you but we end these conversations with each of you asking the other to commit to an action so I'm going to hand over I've got I've got a slide where Hannah you get to start with a question to Julian and then we flip and then I’ll just wrap up

HANNAH: amazing so Julian what one thing will you commit to as a result of this conversation we've had today

JULIAN: It's so hard, can I cheat and give two things?

JACKIE: So, you can have two Julian

JULIAN: no just because I've just got me thinking so much so the first one is something I think I can do without you Hannah, so there's a clue to my second one The first thing I'd like to do because as leaders we really do set the tone, I recognize that I know this from what people say of you know people who work in our teams will sometimes think of us first thing in the morning or last thing at night there's a special place you have and and I think that it gives a special responsibility so it's a great question Jackie and I want to ensure I can foster a culture of inclusion I can have conversations like this in my team so I think I'd like to the first thing to commit to is to have a conversation like this with my broader team whether I'll get some advice off you Jackie about this about who we might bring in to do this because I think it is something I'd love to do with with my team not only will that be helpful to my team I also think it models these sorts of conversations and fostering that culture but the ask I've got for you actually Hannah I'd like you to help me because I want to be the sort of manager where people would feel comfortable to have these conversations to bring them forward so I've got an ask of you whether you can help me and I can share with you some of the challenges I've had in my career and sometimes where I feel like maybe I've not created the culture I'd want to to be able for people to be able to feel comfortable to come forward I want to do that well and I think there's nothing like sort of hearing from somebody like yourself who's got some experience and some positive experiences so that's my ask of you if you like that's the one thing I'm going to commit to doing to follow up with you on that if that's okay

JACKIE: that's brilliant that’s that's great that's almost flipped the script, and you did have a second specific ask if that's okay Julian to uh to ask Hannah

JULIAN: yeah, so Hannah I was interested to to ask you really what what one thing would make a difference to your lived experience working in your PS role at the University of Manchester

HANNAH: Yeah, so first of all I'd like to say of course I would be more than happy to work with you and and help you on that you know where I am and I'm I'm glad we've had this conversation and made that that connection and that network together because hopefully we can take this forward and and do some good work together um so yeah so one thing that would make a difference to my lived experience in the PS role at the University of Manchester is um we've spoken about intersectionality and we've touched on it towards the end of this this conversation but I really one thing I think that would be really transformative is that if it was intersectional approaches were embedded and integrated into our new ideas on the website today and I think if the university wants to get to a place where it is combatting inequality and it is being socially responsible and it is accelerating its research impact and all the five themes that we're focusing on I think it would be such a shame if intersectionality wasn't at the core of how are driving our people to do the best that they can and using the research you know that maybe some of the academics have done on intersectionality in maybe Manchester or in the global context using the kind of lessons learned from that and helping that inform our strategy and how we're going to how we can use understanding intersectionality to to really help marginalise people in the workplace to perform to the best that they can and to bring that to bring their unique perspectives you know challenge the system and really drive us to be a much more inclusive institution. It would make my would be my dream PS

JACKIE: oh Hannah that was just so moving right Julian and I you can't see us because obviously it's audio recording but Julian and I we're just nodding our heads um vigorously when we were listening to it and absolutely transfixed by what you were saying weren't we and one of the things I've got a final point that I don't normally make on these conversations but I wanted to say as a future leader we need to hear your voice okay not we need to hear our voices obviously because we're in positions to be able to influence but we also need to capture more voices of people like you Hannah who are you know the future who are standing on platforms now where you'll grow into roles that will be really able to change so actually it's a perfect opportunity to start having that conversation that you just so eloquently described about let's not keep thinking about looking down single lenses through protected characteristics conditions or phases but have to think about everything joined up because we're all the sum of our parts and those parts are multiple identities so you know we've touched on some of them today there are others that we haven't touched on every person listening to this will have their own multiple identity and you're so right and I I could not agree with you more that the more we section off things to look down a particular framework that's looking at a particular characteristic the the less we're looking at the big picture which is what you've both spoken so beautifully about today so Hannah thank you so much for being my guest Julian of course obviously for you have you any final comments you just want to leave I mean we've finished officially sort of recording into the conversation now is there any final comments you want to finish with

JULIAN: I think I feel really privileged to have had this conversation and I think the university is in really safe hands with people of your generation with your experience and courage to be able to advocate for the type of future that you want in the workplace in the university for yourself of course but also for the organization so that you're going to work for in the future and I think they'll be privileged to have somebody like you in them where ever you work I hope you do create a long career at this university and you remain a colleague of mine in that so just to say that it's been a really really interesting conversation for Jackie and myself today so thank you very much thank you Julian, Hannah any parting words

HANNAH: So I was actually quite nervous to do this today and come on and come on and be quite open about my lived experiences but I'm so happy that I've done it and I hope that it does resonate with the audience and I do hope if anyone who is suffering with chronic illnesses or chronic pain, I hope that you know that you're not alone and you know if you do need someone to speak to my name's Hannah Murphy please reach out to me and I just wanted to end with saying thank you for Jackie for hosting me today thank you to Owen Mills for referring me yes come and speak on the podcast and thank you to Julian for taking your time to have this amazing conversation.

JACKIE: That's wonderful thank you both very much indeed thank you