Let's Talk Disability

Let’s Talk Disability Series 2, Episode 2

Host: Professor Jackie Carter
Guest: Will Stone
Guest: Hannah Rundle

JACKIE: Hello, I'm Jackie Carter. I'm a Professor in Statistical Literacy and the Academic Lead for Disability Inclusion at the University of Manchester.

I live with a disability and a long-term condition and often describe myself as deaf, dizzy and disabled.

Here's a fact of two. 24% of the working age population in the UK has a disability. 80% of disabilities are hidden or invisible, as are mine.

I started the Let's Talk Disability podcast series to provide a platform to raise awareness of what it means to be a disability-inclusive university. The podcast is a series of conversations which I host on the lived and living experience of our colleagues and postgraduate students of being disabled or having a long-term condition.

On each episode, I host two guests. One is a senior leader at the university, a person with influence and responsibility. The other is a member of staff or postgraduate student who is open to sharing their disability or long-term condition.

The aim is to demystify what being disabled means and create a culture of sharing.

But, and this is important, each episode moves from dialogue to deeds, from talking to action.

The senior leader is invited to commit to just one thing, an action they will take away as a result of the conversation. The disabled guest gets to say what one thing would make the difference to their lived experience as a colleague or a student at the university.

So let's dive in and find out what today's guests want to share and what they will commit to to make our university more disability-inclusive.

JACKIE: Okay, good morning to my two guests today on what is episode two of series two of the Let's Talk Disability podcast.

And I'm delighted to have Hannah and Will in the recording studio with me.

So without further ado, Will, I'm going to hand over to you please to introduce yourself and say why you're here.

WILL: Hi, I'm Will Stone. I'm Communications and Engagement Manager in the Faculty of Humanities.

I'm here about, I guess, hidden disabilities. I have had two kidney transplants, one which is current and has lasted 25 years. But a lot of people don't know that. They couldn't see it. They couldn't, they don't know about it.

JACKIE: Thank you. Delighted to have you here, Will. Hannah, over to you.

HANNAH: So hi, I'm Hannah Rundle. I'm Director of Faculty Operations for the Faculty of Humanities.

I'm really delighted to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward learning more about your story, Will, and absolutely thinking about how we can take action both in the Faculty of Humanities and in terms of my wider leadership as part of the Professional Services Leadership Team.
JACKIE Wonderful. So as we all just discussed, these conversations are all about taking the lid off talking about disability with the interest of making the disability at the University of Manchester disability inclusive.

And to do that, we have conversations, but it's really important we then move to action.

So, Will, over to you to start this conversation, please. What is it that you'd like to share with the listeners?

WILL: Well, I guess I have a long-term health condition and that, will always require treatment.

So I'm on anti-rejection drugs or immunosuppressants. I had kidney failure as a child. So from the age of seven, it went undiagnosed until I was about eleven. And then they discovered that one kidney didn't work. And then I had this weird duplex, two baby kidneys stuck together. And I was very, very lucky that the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital sort of got involved. And that kind of helped me for a long time. So it gave me 10 extra years. And I was working in the south of France. I'd gone to college and went to the south of France to work. And that would be in 1994.

And the hospital rang and said, where are you? And I said I was in France. And they said keep an eye on your blood results. So every couple of weeks, I'd cycle down to the local pharmacy because French medicine is really far more advanced. In this small town in the back of the pharmacy, he would do my blood test. And then he'd fax them back to the campsite. I'd fax them back to my dad, who worked at the university in Preston. And he'd fax them on to the consultant. And it would be a case of so far so good, you're okay.

By the September, I was exhausted. But when I came back and went to see the consultant, he said, 'oh, I'm glad you're back.' And I was like, why? He said, another month and you'd be dead. So I was rapidly put on to dialysis. It wasn't the best experience first time around. It was kind of done at home. But my dad had given me an opportunity of giving a kidney, his kidney. Sadly, that didn't work. You know, and he went through a lot of kind of upheaval with having the operation and that kind of leaves you with a sense of guilt and no solution.

I went back on dialysis and I was very lucky that there was a great nurse who kind of looked after me. And by sort of 98, I was at university. I was actually living in the South France, DJing and going, 'this is all right'. And then it wasn't till the October of that year, 98.

I'd been away for the weekend in Paris, got back to the airport and there was a telex message. We forget about these days with instant messages, but you know, they'll telex sheets and saying, do not eat or drink possible transplant.

So having to sit on the flight all the way back to Manchester and then wait for that transplant to check, because you don't know. That's the thing. It's always a guessing game. You just do not know if it will be successful, whether you match or not. Luckily it was.

So for 25, 26 years, actually, I've had that transplant. It's been perfect. I was lucky. It was a million to one, a
doppelganger, the nurse said. And you get on with life in a way, but you have had the operation. It's successful.

But then you're on immunosuppressants for life. They have horrible side effects at times. And I think then people look at you and go, 'oh, you're normal'. And nobody at university really knew. My lecturers didn't know. I didn't declare it because I didn't see myself as necessarily ill or disabled in that sense.

And in fact, you know, trying to get anything like support, I didn't qualify for free prescriptions, didn't qualify for a lot of things at the time. So, and it's really difficult even to this day for kidney patients to get that kind of recognition as well.

JACKIE: Gosh, Hannah, maybe over to you.

I've got lots of questions, but I think it'd be really nice for you to ask some questions on the basis of maybe how that affects everyday life working at the university.

HANNAH: Yeah, thanks, Jackie. Well, thank you for sharing that story.

Yeah, lots of questions, but I think that's a great place to start in terms of questions.

So, you know, in terms of, you know, you obviously work in our faculty, got a fantastic role in our
comms and marketing team. How does the, you know, and you've talked about this, a hidden illness, I think those were your words. You know, how does that impact on your day to day work here?

WILL: Well, I think just to answer that, I think when you fill out an application and it says, 'are you disabled?' That's a really hard thing to answer because you don't know, you don't class yourself as that and society doesn't necessarily class you as that. So you start to wonder. I think health wise, you know, the drugs have side effects. They create other things like high blood pressure. So it's one of those kind of one
thing good and then one thing bad.

So on the day it can be exhaustion, it can be pounding headaches, it can just be a variety of different things. And I suppose it's hard. You don't know whether that's the side effects or whether you're just not looking after yourself in that same way. But I would tend to say for me on the whole, I try and perform like my peers. I don't see myself as completely different and you wouldn't necessarily see that as well.

So I think there are regular checkups at the hospital. I think there's an anxiety all the time. Every time you go, is that kidney function starting to go off?

I'm seeing quite regularly still because I lost my first transplant. Even 26 years on, they still want to see me every three months.

So that's a key thing. And then I think when it comes to experiences, whether that be travel and how you travel for and all the complications that come with that, come into that.

I'd also add, sometimes when you have those exhausting days, I personally anyway would feel guilty for taking time off sick and it counting in that way as being generally poorly. I've never really taken time off sick. And I don't know whether that's because I'm conditioned, you know, I'm grown up with it or whether it's not clear, it's not a disclosed disability.

HANNAH: So there's a couple of things in that I'd like to pick up.

So picking up that point there about kind of being concerned about taking time off when you're sick. You know, this is one of the things that really came out in the wellbeing survey for our faculty.

So two issues really, one was around people working when they were unwell, which is really concerning. And another, some concerns around, yeah, our culture around, you know, taking time off when you're sick.
I mean, I wonder if you can unpack that a bit for me, are there things you think we can do differently to support colleagues in this?

Is there something about how we're talking or behaving as an organisation that creates that feeling for you?

JACKIE: Yeah, great questions.

WILL: Yeah. I mean, I love my job and I'm passionate about it and I'll probably, we'll think about it all the time. That's, I think there are a thousand one great things that we could be doing here. I think I'm fortunate, you know, in the line managers that have had and here currently that they've been very supportive, and will tell me to take time off.

Now that's whether I'm doing, you know, too many hours sometimes, or I'll think of something. But I think it's a question in myself as well. And that's a difficult thing when you don't feel, or you don't have that label on you, you carry on as normal in that sense. I think there's a flexibility and that's something that's agreed on a very one-to-one basis with your line manager who will understand that. Not all line managers are like that.

And I think that's where the problem can be.

So you don't know when you change line managers, whether they'll have that same empathy and understanding of what that means. And it's really difficult because you don't want to cry wolf either, if that makes sense, because in all tenses and purposes I'm more wandering around normally.

But I suppose, there's time off for medical appointments all the time. There's anxiety of waiting for those results as well.

What could the university do more of? I think a lot more openness about hidden disabilities. And I would say a lot more about side effects and how people work, but also supporting staff to accept that. Because in these situations, the medical system isn't geared up for that psychological support. I didn't get any psychological support while I was on dialysis. They now do for young people. So you go through these episodes, which are traumas, I think, and then you come out the other side.

But I think for a well-rounded employee, it's a great place to go.

Actually, you can come without that sense of guilt.

HANNAH: There's some really important things wrapped up there, aren't there?

Something about that consistency of line managers cannot be dependent on, you know, an individual being compassionate. It has to be absolutely embedded in our structures for line management. And something about that storytelling, which I guess this is part of that, isn't it? A bit about, you know, kind of socialising some of that.

JACKIE: Can I jump on that as well?

Because I think you've touched on something really interesting. So when you can't see something, it's very hard to know how to respond. And you've talked about that and that underlying constant stress that comes with the long-term condition that you've got.

But you've also talked a lot about what we would call the medical model of disability. You know, your kidneys didn't function well, so you've had to have a kidney transplant. And what we're trying to do at the University of Manchester is raise awareness of the social model of disability.

And regardless of whether or not you personally would describe yourself as disabled or with a long-term condition, if there are effects of what you're dealing with on an everyday basis that impacts on you, we're trying to open up conversations about what that means. So that's entirely, the ethos around the Let's Talk Disability and conditions, long-term conditions.

So one of the things I'm hearing that maybe needs to come back to yourself, Hannah, is how can we culturally change the conversations in the institution to enable people to, A, feel it's safe to share, should they wish to. Nobody has to share anything they don't wish to. But if they do, how can they be assured that they will get the support from their colleagues in a way that's empathetic and supportive and helpful and enables them to do the job, but also have a down day, right?

And, you know, it's not always about medical conditions that mean that people need that. A good, well-functioning institution like a university who cares about the well-being of its staff needs to be thinking in the round about what do we need to do.

So that was a very long way of coming back to your well-being point about how can we ensure that we're giving our staff and students come to that, a good, supportive, caring environment
to look after their well-being, to enable them to do their job or study.

HANNAH: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a range of things for me that certainly we're thinking about at the moment. So some of it is around the kind of training and the development and the kind of expectations we set, both making sure everyone has done the kind of mandatory training, but also kind of taking that deeper and into some wider conversations. I think there's some role modelling aspects of this. There's some elements about talking about this, both, colleagues at all levels of the organisation and in all kinds of roles.

I guess kind of, it's the right phrase, but kind of normalising this, it doesn't matter who you are and there'll be all sorts of stories about people we don't know or things that people have going on in their lives and so kind of creating the space for those conversations.

And I guess we also have to call out bad behaviour.

So when we're seeing examples or hearing things that aren't in alignment with where we want to be around kind of wellbeing and space that we do, we call those out, we respond to them and we think about how we can learn from them.

But, I definitely don't think of myself as an expert on this, but it is something that I worry about and something that I think we need to do more about, definitely.

JACKIE: Yeah, thank you both.

And that being an expert on something is really important because, again, one of the reasons I started this series of conversations is to let's just have the conversation, okay?

You don't need to be an expert. You're an expert in your own lived experience, but you don't need to be an expert in disability studies, for example, to have a conversation with somebody about how their condition's affecting them.

So what do you think? You've variously described your journey to where you are now, some of the parts of your role because of your condition that may cause you stress and you never, the unexpected nature of that.

You don't know if you're going to have a good day or a bad day, but where is this taking us?

How can we as an institution improve where we're at in terms of thinking about people with hidden conditions or hidden and or hidden disabilities?

WILL: Well, if I was being blunt, I think there's kind of this conversation is the tip of the iceberg.

I think there are many people who go completely undisclosed and that's a challenge because some will be doing it because they're fearful. Some will be doing it because they don't feel it, you know, like I do. And there'll be those who are really unsure how it might affect their work.

And I think that's the biggest issue. I think for some will be, you know, whether it's mental health issues, whether they're depressed, do they really want to disclose that because they'll be labelled in that as well.

So I think that's a challenge if we don't create a community that accepts that and understands that and also better understanding of some of these long-term illnesses as well, because I think that's something that when I asked about traveling, was there a route, a pathway for those who have pre-existing medical conditions, the answer was really we don't record them.

So that made me really worry because it's like how many people have maybe gone through that same experience that I did, which was frustrating and worrying to know if I go traveling and something happens, am I truly, truly covered and safe? And I'm pretty sure I would be.

I think the university wouldn't leave me out on a limb, you know, but I think it did make me think and it made me think about any of my peers who may have undisclosed or hidden illnesses. What have they gone through as well? And I think that's the challenge I'd say, Hannah, is how do we get to that and to make sure there is a pathway and a support for those people who perhaps need that extra bit of advice and reassurance?

HANNAH: Yeah, so like I said before, I'm not sure I have any of the answers to this, but it is something that we all need to think about. You know, that ability to, share, disclose whatever the right, the kind of right phrase is, is so important that people feel safe to do so, right?

You know, and it's really interesting that we don't capture that. That feels like something I need to take back to colleagues, definitely in terms of kind of understanding that, and how are all of our policies and our arrangements geared up to be as inclusive and as enabling as possible, right?

So certainly it sounds like some of the elements of our travel policy and how that is being implemented aren't as inclusive as possible. And so how do we learn from that? How do we take the specific examples? Because often that's what it's needed, this doesn't work in this, and the process has to accommodate it.

So how do we really test it and understand some of that? Because we absolutely want everybody to be able to participate in all of the activities, one of which absolutely being travel.

So yeah.

JACKIE: Yeah, I think you're both right. I've got another curious question that I'm going to pose as well, which is a little bit, maybe a bit unfair, but I'm going to ask it anyway, at the moment at the university, we've got a new leader, we're going through this sort of transition into the Brave New Future Strategy. And it's fantastic that people are having the opportunity to say, and I, for one, have been talking about inclusive by design in the policies and the practices that we develop.

Not everybody feels comfortable, as we've just said, sharing, disclosing, whatever word we choose to use in terms of, let's call disability inclusion or long-term conditions. So I think one of the things that I worry about actually is about, there's all this pressure in higher education now for various reasons, external reasons as well. And people are being asked to do an awful lot and that puts people under pressure.

So how do we really create this compassionate environment where people can share if they're having a bad day or can say if they need support or can go to a safe space and have that support if they don't, if they don't want to share it with their colleagues or, you know, how do we do that?

How do we get better at supporting our staff who we have a duty of care to and our students who we know, you know, are under tremendous pressure?

It's a big question. I don't have the answers, but I'm sort of curious about whether or not you think that there are things that we could be doing better based on your experiences and roles.

WILL: I mean, from my perspective, it's about skilling up and, you know, I'm not being irreverent here, but, when I worked for a global company and the HR director said, I'm the director of human remains, but they were absolutely fantastic because I wasn't covered by the life policy insurance because someone didn't activate the pension at the right time. And they went, we'll cover it. We'll cover your life, travel insurance, your life insurance. You're one of ours, you know, big global listed company. And I was quite surprised by that.

But I think we should question, have we got all the soft skills? Have we got all the right skills? Have we got people who have that, medical qualifications or awareness and social disability qualifications?

And that's hard. I think I now recognize that's hard because the more inclusive we become, the bigger that becomes. You know, I feel I have for me personally a certain amount of resilience.

You know, my mum was a hardworking teacher, never took any, my grandmother was, you know, they were just instilled in me in that kind of resilience and hard work.
But that can't be the case for everybody, and I remember being on dialysis and I remember I used to have to do twilights on night shifts and I couldn't sleep after and eventually they put me on day shifts and I managed to get my studies around it and I thrived because of that.

But I also looked around me and those who focused on being ill were ill and those who just got on with life and I met some amazing people who had full-time jobs, were off snowboarding and that was a really inspiring experience.

So I think there's two parts to that. One, have we got the skill set, to manage some of those difficult areas because I think there are some very clear areas where we're very aware of. Neurodiversity, we're getting better at. Physical disability, we're working on that. But things like hidden illness is a lot harder because it's more nuanced, I would say. I think the other part is about us, having that community of compassion and empathy and understanding that as well and helping people realise and fulfil their potential. I think that's the main thing we can all do with that and I think, but that may be many different paths for different people.

It's not a straightforward path and the one-size-fits-all doesn't work anymore because we have changed both the way we work and our community around us, our employees, our peers, Hannah.

HANNAH: Sorry, nodding along as you were talking there and I agree with all of that. I think the point about upskilling is really well made. A couple of other things I suppose that came to mind as you're asking the question. So, you know, you talked about being inclusive by design, so this has to be embedded in the heart of the Manchester strategy and resources have to follow our commitments around some of this.

And, you know, there is a whole set of institutional accountability linked to that. And then there's a set of things for me that are about culture, behaviours, role modelling, having these kinds of conversations, creating spaces where people feel safe to be vulnerable, right? And that's not an easy thing.

And, you know, all of these things are different, but, you know, it's a tiny example. But for me myself, I've always tried to talk relatively openly about the fact I have rheumatoid arthritis, right? Lifelong chronic condition doesn't, you know, fortunately very well controlled, but I've had days where getting from one part of the campus to the other just felt like it was going to, you know, we all have an impact. So how do we all share these stories and show some vulnerability so that when the next person's looking at that form and do I tick the box when I arrive and explain what is going on in my life? Yes, because I trust the organisation is going to respond compassionately, not no, because I'm really nervous that this is going to count against me.

And so lots of things have to happen, but that's where we want to get to, right?

JACKIE: Yeah, you're both so right.

And it starts with conversations like this, doesn't it?

And then bringing others on board as and when they feel comfortable to do so.

And if they want to do that anonymously, that's also fine.

And one of the things I think we, I haven't got right yet, and I hold my hand, my hands up is ensuring people who don't want to be named, who don't want to be identified can still have their voices heard because it's not just about, the brave and the good and the people who are used to speaking on platforms like LinkedIn and on podcasts like this, but it really has to be fully inclusive. It has to include anybody who wants to share their story to be able to do so, so that we can create that more compassionate environment that you both talked about and also instil the behaviours in our staff and students that, you know, this is what we're about. We really do care about this and we're really giving everybody the opportunity. I think you used the phrase to reach their potential. That's my paraphrasing what you said.

JACKIE This is such a wonderful conversation. I know we could sort of talk a lot more at length, but is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd want to pick up in the context?

I mean, you just shared your own condition there. You know, we're not assuming that people who get to a certain level don't have a disability or long-term condition, and by being vulnerable and open and sharing, that is the role modelling that we're trying to create, so that we've got quite a lot of leaders now who have come out from under their shell and said, PJ Hemingway is one of them, and is embracing the neurodiversity, in his case, and talking about it very openly.

And the more that we can do that, the more we normalise. I can't remember who used the term normalise, but it's okay.

You know, 24% of the working-age population has a disability or long-term condition, 80% are hidden. Right, so if we all talk about what we have and how we're supporting our staff, colleagues, PS, academics, and students with their conditions, then we're making it okay for others to talk about their conditions as well.

I know that they can go and have those conversations and get that support. So, I'm really encouraged, actually, by what you both said today. But then I'll come back to you and say, is there anything you haven't talked about that you think it'd be really nice to capture on this episode?

WILL: I mean, I think that was really useful, Hannah. You shared your experience, and again, I wouldn't have known, so I think it is about creating that safe environment. And look, we know outside and external factors about disability, if you read the news recently, has, you know, put a lot of pressure on that.

I think there is a real need to allow people to declare that anonymously or however they do to feel safe and feel that it's not, I'm not going to be judged, I'm not going to be labelled, there's no black dot on, you know, mark on my file because of that. And you do get inspiration from those who will step up, you know, I can only, you know, there was, he sadly passed away, but there was a young man who, was Nigerian, grown up in the UK, who was on dialysis with me. And if it hadn't been for Fumi, I think I probably would have really struggled. But, you know, he's like, 'I'm going snowboarding, I'm doing this.' Three degrees, patents to his name, he's just full on, three transplants and it beat him in the end.

But if it hadn't been for people like that, and I think I was in that environment where, there were people who were very, very poorly, people who didn't look after themselves. It's a really weird situation when you dialyze three times a week, you meet these people and you get different outtakes of what health is like.

So you see the whole spectrum.

I think in a work environment, it's useful to be able to see that and to, because if you see someone who's like you, you go, 'ah, okay, yeah, I feel part of that as well.' And there's lots of other things that we all need to think about our own health, our own resilience, our own kind of wellbeing.
But there's that added extra, I don't want to call it a burden, there's that extra thing when you've got a long term illness. I think even your own peers and even your own family can take it for granted because they don't see that day to day.

So that's one of the things, you know, that people, again, I would never have known. And you go, no, you probably wouldn't, you know, but in yourself, you're carrying it around all the time. It is a piece of baggage and that's really tricky.

So I would hope that we create more of a forum for that. I think there's a real opportunity to talk about hidden illness and disability across our organisation, because as you said, there's probably 80% of society don't admit it or declare it.

JACKIE: Thank you, Will.

HANNAH: I mean, so I've got loads of questions, but I think the conversation doesn't have to stop here, right? So we can carry on talking about some of this. My head's full of thoughts and ideas, but it's been fantastic.

And I'm so grateful to Will for sharing his story with such... it's been thought provoking and really reflective and very authentic.

And so, yeah, thank you.

JACKIE: Thank you.

We'll move to the question that you each ask each other in a minute.

But for me, the takeaway message today is, and we haven't really touched on this in any of the other episodes, it's about vulnerability. One of you used the word vulnerability. And if we want to enable others to have a voice, I think as leaders we do or in any position, and I don't mean leaders just in a role at the top of the university.

I mean, you know, leading ourselves, we have to be open to our vulnerability and to supporting that for exactly the reason that you've just shared. Because if we can do it and affect one person and enable them to, you know, follow a different path perhaps to the one that they would have taken, then it's worth it.

You know, just one person needs to be affected by us speaking out for it to be worth the effort of speaking out. So at the end of these, each of these episodes, I ask each of you to ask the other a question.

And Will, you get to go first. And that's Hannah, your question.

WILL: I guess as a one thing that you're going to commit to as a result of this conversation, Hannah, is the only thing you're going to take away and go, right, I'm going to work on this.

HANNAH Yeah. So lots of thoughts, as I say, I think I'm going to be sneaky as I think some of the predecessors on this have been tuned. There are two things that really strike me in this conversation.

So one is a big theme is, you know, sharing stories, storytelling, communicating, being vulnerable, and how we kind of just build some of the kind of context around some of this, particularly around hidden illnesses. And I have a platform in which I could do that. So, you know, I run an open meeting every month for professional services across the faculty. I get the opportunity to write a senior manager message as part of the faculty newsletter, and I have influence over quite a lot of agenda. So let's just take a step back and really think about how I use some of those platforms, both to show some vulnerability myself and to do some storytelling, but absolutely create the platform for others to do so.

So that's the first thing.

And then the second thing was around the travel policy. There are a number of things in this conversation and our pre conversation that suggests there's some work we need to do to make that as inclusive as possible. So I do want to lean in and support those conversations.

JACKIE: Thank you, Hannah. That's great.

And just to let you know that the Dean of your faculty is going to be a guest on one of these episodes in the future. So be good to think about how you can dovetail perhaps with what Fiona talks about as well. And you have a question that's going to be asked of you as well, Will.

HANNAH: Absolutely. So the question for you, Will, what one thing would make a positive difference to your experience at the university?

WILL: Well, apart from this opportunity. So thank you, Jackie. I think that raises that awareness. I think it would be really useful if we did create some dialogue, future dialogue about hidden illnesses or hidden disabilities, because I think that would give a lot of people a lot of opportunity to share, to feel that they're not alone and they don't necessarily have to hide it.

So I think that would be my kind of one takeaway to ask of you, Hannah. I think it would be a positive thing for all of us to hear that.

JACKIE: Oh, I love that. And it's so important to feel that you're not alone, isn't it?

By speaking out, you share that experience with others, share the burden, whatever you want to call it.

But you also can support each other and that support is just so vitally important.

And on that note, this month, we're in March, I don't know when this episode will go out, but in March 2025, we are going to be releasing a hidden disabilities campaign around campus.

So I've been working with the student union, with professional services, and we're going to have a big campaign to showcase what the Hidden Disability Sunflower Lanyard means.

And not just those of us who have hidden conditions or hidden disabilities, but what people can do to support us. Because as you'll have gathered, it's all about not just having the conversations, it's about moving to action.

So thank you so much Will and Hannah for being my guest today. I've really loved today's conversation. I feel nourished. I've taken a lot away from this and I've learned a lot as well.

So thank you very much.

Any parting words?

WILL: Just thank you, Jackie.

Thank you for continuing your passion about this because I think it's really important.

And I ultimately think the more we talk, the more we learn, the more we share, the more we gain.

HANNAH: And that feels like a beautiful place to end the podcast, doesn't it?

But just to add my thanks as well, it's been really positive and I've got some great actions to take away from it.

JACKIE: Fantastic. Thank you both very much.